Also I never stated (nor do i think) that Darkfall is doing the best or anything. I made my statement because of the comment "A world cannot exist for PvP alone" which isn't true when you have games like Darkfall.
Take it a step further and MOBAs, FPS, RTS, CCG, etc seem to be doing just fine with only "PVP" be it in a safe/friendly environment. Gamers love to compete and while I would like there to be more to do beyond lobby style instant gratification killing, there is no shortage of folks that wouldn't mind taking all the "PVP" and putting it into a quality fantasy world. Doesn't hurt that they are going for deep Crafting and Non-Combat elements as well.
Originally posted by Dullahan The problem with the non-tab target mmos of the past wasn't their combat systems or even the lack of polish, it was the lack of anything worthwhile to do or fight over besides castle seiging and random ganking. It doesn't make for a compelling or believable virtual world, and its likely the same fate Crowfall will suffer if they don't focus on making the game fun beyond the PvP. A world cannot exist for PvP alone. The counterstrike with elves archetype offers no long term playability.
Darkfall is doing just fine. As well as some other sandbox games. -_-
Not sure who you are kidding, but it sure ain't me.
Lets not pretend the hundreds of thousands of players like myself who followed Darkfall from its announcement back in the early 2000s were anything but disappointed with the final product or its sequel. They got stuck on pvp and sieging and never delivered on creating a meaningful world with various other activities that offered players a reason to log in. No progression, no content = no fun.
You and others can have your thoughts on the game.
However, that is irrelevant to the fact that it isn't dead and has a healthy population..
It isn't dead, but the population is not healthy. You are only fooling yourself.
I'll chime in here... by saying this... whether darkfall is alive or not really isn't going to make a good case for or against action combat, as darkfall's problems lie elsewhere...
That being said, darkfall isn't really doing all that well, it's been hanging on by a thread for quite a while... if i recall one of the head honchos a while back made some drunken vlog venting about how messed up things were there.
It actually reminds me a lot of shadowbane in how the game fared...
If he didn't see this or that is on him.
When I was on a couple of weeks ago things were fine from my perspective.
Also I never stated (nor do i think) that Darkfall is doing the best or anything. I made my statement because of the comment "A world cannot exist for PvP alone" which isn't true when you have games like Darkfall.
Exist as in make a thriving game with at least a stable population.
By your definition of exist, I could create a dos based game and have 2 friends log in once a week. That's clearly not what I meant.
If crowfall wants to be successful in any measurement of success, they need to offer more or suffer the same fate.
Bingo! That wasn't stated before.
Not my issue. You're the one who posted a broad statement. I don't know you so how am I going to know what you meant/mean. >.>
Obviously. As any game coming out, nowadays, has to as well.
To people talking about Darkfall; I think there are lessons to be learned for any upcoming owpvp focused game from darkfall, but I don't think you guys have hit on the key issues.
I am just going to say it bluntly. Darkfall is really fucked up in many fundamental ways, including but not limited to: 1) A terrible, convoluted control system; 2) it basically requires players to afk farm matts- what type of stupid fucking idea is it to make a feature of the game sitting on a tree and chopping it down while going to watch a video- and just doing that over and over and over; 3) you can't practice your skills on mobs because many of them only work when fighting players (at least that's what it was like when I played), making the pve parts (ie mob grinding) just a pointless grind.
Before we can say a pure owpvp game cannot work without a deep pve framework, you have to actually see how an owpvp game that nails the fundamental gameplay experience fares. ESO's pvp zone for example is a lot of fun and is basically pure owpvp. Crowfalls success will probably have a lot more to do with how it handles fundamental gameplay elements than whether it is a pure pvp game, imo. Because if the basic gameplay sucks, you can't expect a lot of people to get into it.
Darkfall is irrelevant to this discussion until we know how Crowfall's combat system works. They might be leagues apart in difference, as is Wildstar to ESO or Tera to TSW.
Originally posted by observer Darkfall is irrelevant to this discussion until we know how Crowfall's combat system works. They might be leagues apart in difference, as is Wildstar to ESO or Tera to TSW.
I'm more interested, it might be difficult to develop good action gameplay with computer setup, but having played Smite, i think they could makes something work if the experimented with new features.
I'm even more interested with the subject of collision and accidental striking. If their talking about friendly fire with projectile weapons in specific I am extremely pleased.
I'm really curious how they will implement projectile attacks, friendly fire and target acquisition if this is the case. I'm not interested in FPS in such a game, but having an interesting targeting and accuracy solution could make for some really interesting engagements.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Will have to see how the actual combat plays out but in general non-tab targeting tends to have favored strafe, circling opponents, wierd jumping over people and a myriad of other 'twitchy' moves over move and counter move based combat (i.e., paper rock scissors).
I do not want to have to 'break dance' to win at pvp.
I agree. I call them Jumper Spinner Tards in pvp. In other words: "i suck at pvp so im just going to jump and spin all around you to sploit LOS."
SOE changes name to Daybreak games, cause dey break games.
Idc either way, Love tab targeting and love other forms. As long as the core of the game is very very good I don't think it will matter what combat they implement.
The main concern I have with no tab targeting is that this may make the core__move and counter move; rock, paper, and scissors aspect of Shadowbane__which this game seems to build upon in conflict if not outright highly broken balance wise favoring twitchy based combat (non-tab targeting combat).
There are a lot of action combat games that didn't do combat well. But take TERA as an example of how to do it right. It's has elements of action as well as still being very strategic. TERA's combat requires a lot of skill in different ways once you get to endgame.
Originally posted by Randayn I think it's going to be another failure in a long list of free for all PVP non-tab target action combat mmos...
Such as?
Such as every single one that's been released. It's a recipe for a low-population game.
I don't think the combat is the main culprit for that, because i could say that about every tab-target game.
But on topic, i like it. I like more games are going for action combat, IMHO tab-target has reached it's limit. We can't go any where else with it. While with action combat we've still got a long way to go. We have yet t see an MMO us it at it's full potential. Tera smacked it, but there is still so much that can me done. There's more room for experementing
I'm not dismissing the game, but my opinion is that I don't think action combat belongs in mmorpg's.
Mortal Online
Darkfall
Tera
Wildstar
ESO
They are good games, enjoyed by many, but to me mmorpg's are games that you play for a long time, and a lot of the time every session is longer than with other game types, so action combat isn't preferable to me, I like tab target.
I like to aim in shooters, not so much my rpg's.
I'm a gamer and I play games, not virtual vending machines.
I'm really not interested in twitch in an MMORPG, it deemphasizes what I want most emphasized, namely strategic character and group building, in favor of... being a teenager.
I'm really not interested in twitch in an MMORPG, it deemphasizes what I want most emphasized, namely strategic character and group building, in favor of... being a teenager.
How does not being tab remove strategy, character/group building? Actually how does tab help those elements?
Really don't understand this POV. Totally get that some people like the slower pace, less need of two hands all the time and other benefits of tab systems, but I don't understand how the targeting system can magically add/remove certain features/systems from a game.
PVP by nature is pretty "twitchy" in every game I've played online in the last ~20 years. Regardless if it is a MUD, click to move, tab, FPS, RTS, MOBA, whatever. Don't believe I've ever had a moment where I went "Man tab really added a lot to that challenge." Maybe it's just me though, but I'm long past my teenage years.
Originally posted by Greymantle4 No worries here they lost me at full loot pvp.
Same here. Another game aimed at not my enjoyment level.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Tab-Targeting is both a convenience and a necessary evil in action and rpg games. Taking it away diminishes the fact that it provides a good flow in play. I have a short example of how non-tab-targeting appears in my mind...
Player A is in a party with Player B.
Player B is an up close melee character while Player A is a ranged character.
A single mob is attacked by Player B -One click autoattack.
Player B obstructs the fluid act of targeting by Player A, who cannot begin to DPS until the mouse pointer and mob select box is exact.
Player B continues to dps while Player A cannot until selection is made by sliding the mouse pointer onto the mob and clicking... Three actions pre-combat, not two or even one (realized by the melee's single click target/attack.)
Non-Tab Targeting is just a built in grief and time sink... Player A will auto-attack when:
1. Cursor realizes mob's select box.
2. Player A <clicks>, if auto-attack is up and running.
In PvP this is disastrous! Five players would make targeting feel like a player has to find both ends of a strand of spaghetti. Not to mention the illness of attacking your own in error. Can't find the level of sarcasm to express how non-skilled that really is here.
Tab is an expeditious mouse over/mouse click. Most games offer both mouse-click and Tab. Those games have always been a leader in the industry. Forcing players to be so-called targeting professionals is just a silly dream.
Now tab-targeting to open a treasure chest is what I'm waiting on. Besides, I really enjoy trying to click through 30 players to pick up a quest from the buried NPC. Think... Yes... Think big!
Good games are ruined by the little things. Bad games end up with the fans who don't care too much about telling the truth.
In the most absurd way, I guess typing will return in RPG's so players can move -.-
Originally posted by Dullahan The problem with the non-tab target mmos of the past wasn't their combat systems or even the lack of polish, it was the lack of anything worthwhile to do or fight over besides castle seiging and random ganking. It doesn't make for a compelling or believable virtual world, and its likely the same fate Crowfall will suffer if they don't focus on making the game fun beyond the PvP. A world cannot exist for PvP alone. The counterstrike with elves archetype offers no long term playability.
Darkfall is doing just fine. As well as some other sandbox games. -_-
Not sure who you are kidding, but it sure ain't me.
Lets not pretend the hundreds of thousands of players like myself who followed Darkfall from its announcement back in the early 2000s were anything but disappointed with the final product or its sequel. They got stuck on pvp and sieging and never delivered on creating a meaningful world with various other activities that offered players a reason to log in. No progression, no content = no fun.
Pretty much what he said. I too followed Darkfall and everything they promised us, and failed to deliver everything else except FFA PvP, and even that was ruined by the horrible macro-fest grind the game had. DF is doing just fine is a white lie, they can perhaps keep the server costs up, but less than 10k subscribers isn't doing fine, its a dying game that is slowly withering away.
It's not "Tab-Targeting", it's RPG-Targeting. Crowfall, now with out RPG-Targeting.
Why did fans of SWG hate the CU/NGE?
Replaced RPG-Targeting with FPS-Targeting.
Removed Macro Grinding (Macro Leveling).
Removed interdependence from crafting.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Kinda sucks, I love tab targeting for healing and support roles, makes it MUCH easier and more fun. I don't mind certain spells being AoE or Cone though, but if that's all it is for support roles that seems kind of lame
Comments
Take it a step further and MOBAs, FPS, RTS, CCG, etc seem to be doing just fine with only "PVP" be it in a safe/friendly environment. Gamers love to compete and while I would like there to be more to do beyond lobby style instant gratification killing, there is no shortage of folks that wouldn't mind taking all the "PVP" and putting it into a quality fantasy world. Doesn't hurt that they are going for deep Crafting and Non-Combat elements as well.
Bingo! That wasn't stated before.
Not my issue. You're the one who posted a broad statement. I don't know you so how am I going to know what you meant/mean. >.>
Obviously. As any game coming out, nowadays, has to as well.
Witty & Wicked
To people talking about Darkfall; I think there are lessons to be learned for any upcoming owpvp focused game from darkfall, but I don't think you guys have hit on the key issues.
I am just going to say it bluntly. Darkfall is really fucked up in many fundamental ways, including but not limited to: 1) A terrible, convoluted control system; 2) it basically requires players to afk farm matts- what type of stupid fucking idea is it to make a feature of the game sitting on a tree and chopping it down while going to watch a video- and just doing that over and over and over; 3) you can't practice your skills on mobs because many of them only work when fighting players (at least that's what it was like when I played), making the pve parts (ie mob grinding) just a pointless grind.
Before we can say a pure owpvp game cannot work without a deep pve framework, you have to actually see how an owpvp game that nails the fundamental gameplay experience fares. ESO's pvp zone for example is a lot of fun and is basically pure owpvp. Crowfalls success will probably have a lot more to do with how it handles fundamental gameplay elements than whether it is a pure pvp game, imo. Because if the basic gameplay sucks, you can't expect a lot of people to get into it.
Who was comparing Darkfall to Crowfall?
Witty & Wicked
I'm even more interested with the subject of collision and accidental striking. If their talking about friendly fire with projectile weapons in specific I am extremely pleased.
I'm really curious how they will implement projectile attacks, friendly fire and target acquisition if this is the case. I'm not interested in FPS in such a game, but having an interesting targeting and accuracy solution could make for some really interesting engagements.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
I agree. I call them Jumper Spinner Tards in pvp. In other words: "i suck at pvp so im just going to jump and spin all around you to sploit LOS."
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
Such as every single one that's been released. It's a recipe for a low-population game.
This is very spot on.
I don't think the combat is the main culprit for that, because i could say that about every tab-target game.
But on topic, i like it. I like more games are going for action combat, IMHO tab-target has reached it's limit. We can't go any where else with it. While with action combat we've still got a long way to go. We have yet t see an MMO us it at it's full potential. Tera smacked it, but there is still so much that can me done. There's more room for experementing
I feel estremely relieved, now i need a confrimation of friedly fire, another important anzti-zerg feature.
I'm not dismissing the game, but my opinion is that I don't think action combat belongs in mmorpg's.
Mortal Online
Darkfall
Tera
Wildstar
ESO
They are good games, enjoyed by many, but to me mmorpg's are games that you play for a long time, and a lot of the time every session is longer than with other game types, so action combat isn't preferable to me, I like tab target.
I like to aim in shooters, not so much my rpg's.
I'm a gamer and I play games, not virtual vending machines.
^
I'm mildly disappointed by this announcement.
I'm really not interested in twitch in an MMORPG, it deemphasizes what I want most emphasized, namely strategic character and group building, in favor of... being a teenager.
How does not being tab remove strategy, character/group building? Actually how does tab help those elements?
Really don't understand this POV. Totally get that some people like the slower pace, less need of two hands all the time and other benefits of tab systems, but I don't understand how the targeting system can magically add/remove certain features/systems from a game.
PVP by nature is pretty "twitchy" in every game I've played online in the last ~20 years. Regardless if it is a MUD, click to move, tab, FPS, RTS, MOBA, whatever. Don't believe I've ever had a moment where I went "Man tab really added a lot to that challenge." Maybe it's just me though, but I'm long past my teenage years.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Tab-Targeting is both a convenience and a necessary evil in action and rpg games. Taking it away diminishes the fact that it provides a good flow in play. I have a short example of how non-tab-targeting appears in my mind...
Player A is in a party with Player B.
Player B is an up close melee character while Player A is a ranged character.
A single mob is attacked by Player B -One click autoattack.
Player B obstructs the fluid act of targeting by Player A, who cannot begin to DPS until the mouse pointer and mob select box is exact.
Player B continues to dps while Player A cannot until selection is made by sliding the mouse pointer onto the mob and clicking... Three actions pre-combat, not two or even one (realized by the melee's single click target/attack.)
Non-Tab Targeting is just a built in grief and time sink... Player A will auto-attack when:
1. Cursor realizes mob's select box.
2. Player A <clicks>, if auto-attack is up and running.
In PvP this is disastrous! Five players would make targeting feel like a player has to find both ends of a strand of spaghetti. Not to mention the illness of attacking your own in error. Can't find the level of sarcasm to express how non-skilled that really is here.
Tab is an expeditious mouse over/mouse click. Most games offer both mouse-click and Tab. Those games have always been a leader in the industry. Forcing players to be so-called targeting professionals is just a silly dream.
Now tab-targeting to open a treasure chest is what I'm waiting on. Besides, I really enjoy trying to click through 30 players to pick up a quest from the buried NPC. Think... Yes... Think big!
Good games are ruined by the little things. Bad games end up with the fans who don't care too much about telling the truth.
In the most absurd way, I guess typing will return in RPG's so players can move -.-
>Turn Left
>Select mob behind Player B
>Click Mob
>Attack
>Click
>Attack
>Click
>Attack
>Click
...(Three hours later)
My, my, look at how time clicks away.
Pretty much what he said. I too followed Darkfall and everything they promised us, and failed to deliver everything else except FFA PvP, and even that was ruined by the horrible macro-fest grind the game had. DF is doing just fine is a white lie, they can perhaps keep the server costs up, but less than 10k subscribers isn't doing fine, its a dying game that is slowly withering away.
It's not "Tab-Targeting", it's RPG-Targeting. Crowfall, now with out RPG-Targeting.
Why did fans of SWG hate the CU/NGE?
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.