You simply cannot discuss deep old school mmorpg elements with newer mmo players.

Xorian7

I recently thought id try it in a swtor topic boy was that a huge mistake, I mean holy crap talk about solo mmo bias there, I get not everyone wants good group based content like in eq or city of heroes, but gee man it was a horrid argument I could of done better myself but people are way to use to the trash we get these days and that saids allot of things, and because of this the future of mmorpgs ever somewhat even returning to there roots doesnt seem likely.

 

mmorpgs should have a balance of both grouping and solo make both more optional instead of just solo, give people a reason to group make leveling more interesting and longer and etc. Anyways theres just no point in discussing how a community is better when people are encouraged to cooperate better. People who did not play or dont enjoy groups or unique classes will never understand games like eq because they never had it or allow themselves to.

Bitrip

I'm old school and newer games are trash to me too...but you have to realize it's not just newer MMO players who accept the new stuff, it's older players too. Some people are just more adaptable than others. New MMOs do things I wish some of the old ones did and vice versa. You just can't win for losing...the best thing to do is find one that does what you want it to and stick with it rather than get caught up in all of the other (trash) games out there.

Xorian7

You dont mean adaptable you mean how far people are willing to go to take trash.

Ludwik

The problem with grouping is its too broad.

I don't think anyone hates grouping per say I think people hate grouping with random players. If my friends aren't available, playing alone is better option than playing with randoms.

But no MMO out there offers scaling group content. If I bring 3 people, I want content designed for 3 people not solo 1 man content or group 5 man content.

Xorian7

I totally put this in the wrong forum, but I meant in older mmorpgs the community was much better so groups where great then.

luisrkiller

Originally posted by Xorian7
You dont mean adaptable you mean how far people are willing to go to take trash.

This makes you sound even more close minded than the "new mmo players" you speak of. Everyone has different taste; if you enjoy an MMO where you have to communicate with others and that has a lot of large group content then good for you, but if someone else enjoys the opposite, I have no clue why that's an issue. Having different taste, or being adaptable to something you like doesn't make it trash.

fivoroth

You strike me as such a nice person. Definitely very open minded.

Xorian7

I dont care what I sound like, and its nothing against you but every mmorpg vet ive meet has claimed mmorpgs are trash and to simple with horrid communities, im glad the kiddies have something to play but what about the adults hmmm? It doesnt make me less open minded it means im a freaken rpg gamer who actually enjoys games with depth.

Mendel

Originally posted by Xorian7

I recently thought id try it in a swtor topic boy was that a huge mistake, I mean holy crap talk about solo mmo bias there, I get not everyone wants good group based content like in eq or city of heroes, but gee man it was a horrid argument I could of done better myself but people are way to use to the trash we get these days and that saids allot of things, and because of this the future of mmorpgs ever somewhat even returning to there roots doesnt seem likely.

 

mmorpgs should have a balance of both grouping and solo make both more optional instead of just solo, give people a reason to group make leveling more interesting and longer and etc. Anyways theres just no point in discussing how a community is better when people are encouraged to cooperate better. People who did not play or dont enjoy groups or unique classes will never understand games like eq because they never had it or allow themselves to.

May I suggest that punctuation is your friend.  It can make your thoughts much more intelligible, and that's the whole point of communication, isn't it?

I don't disagree with you (I think).  Cooperation can increase the game experience.  Just realize that different gamers have different tastes, and that game developers are walking the very thin line of trying to please the most people possible.  Currently, I see that new games are shying away from the group dynamic mostly because of the problems earlier implementations caused.  /ooc LF Healer.  /ooc LF Tank.  I think these are on hotkeys for many players.  I'm hoping the trend to solo is part of a cycle and we are due to see more creative solutions to grouping in upcoming games.

Wizardry

The future is not based on our discussions,it is based on a flooded market that knows only a cheap fast way into the market.

With thousands of developers all vying for the same piece of the pie,nobody is going to risk a long expensive build,especially not Indie devs.

I seriously couldn't care less if Joe plays a Moba and i don't like moba's,at least show me the game has more than dad's pay cheque sunk into it.Just give gamer's a CHOICE in the market,not all pvp or all grouping or all PVE or all solo, or all old school or new school just give us the choice and do it well.Far i am concerned you put out a cheap looking product you deserved to be called out and the fewer people that support cheap games the better off Quality gaming is.

The problem is far deeper than old school versus new school,it is the poor quality shown in game development.

cerulean2012

Originally posted by Xorian7
I dont care what I sound like, and its nothing against you but every mmorpg vet ive meet has claimed mmorpgs are trash and to simple with horrid communities, im glad the kiddies have something to play but what about the adults hmmm? It doesnt make me less open minded it means im a freaken rpg gamer who actually enjoys games with depth.

 

Coming from an MMO vet I do not think every current MMO is trash.  They are different then what has come before but that is true about all things.  Either adapt, find an older game (EQ or others) with rollback servers or just quit.

LacedOpium

Originally posted by Xorian7

I recently thought id try it in a swtor topic boy was that a huge mistake, I mean holy crap talk about solo mmo bias there, I get not everyone wants good group based content like in eq or city of heroes, but gee man it was a horrid argument I could of done better myself but people are way to use to the trash we get these days and that saids allot of things, and because of this the future of mmorpgs ever somewhat even returning to there roots doesnt seem likely.

 

mmorpgs should have a balance of both grouping and solo make both more optional instead of just solo, give people a reason to group make leveling more interesting and longer and etc. Anyways theres just no point in discussing how a community is better when people are encouraged to cooperate better. People who did not play or dont enjoy groups or unique classes will never understand games like eq because they never had it or allow themselves to.

 

Be careful with how you define "old school."  In your OP it appears that you are making an argument for group play much more so than an argument for old school game play.  Although forced group play was certainly a pronounced feature in old school games, i would venture to say that it was one of the more controversially disliked features of old school games.  I would not, in anyway or form, consider myself "old school" as I was but a baby when these games where at their height, but i did still play them at that very young age, and recall on more occasions than I care to remember going to bed in near tears because I was unable to find a group for sometimes hours to play the game.  Grouping was one of the features that I absolutely abhorred about old school games but it was absolutely necessary if you wanted to accomplish anything of any significance in the game.  And I do believe I am not in the minority in that regard.  I understand that there are a percentage of players that like "forced" grouping in their games, but that percentage is in the minority, not the majority.  

Old school features that I do appreciate, support, and wish we would go back to is steeper death penalties, slower leveling curves, less quests but the ones given were longer, deeper, more meaningful and with more worthwhile rewards, better story lines, seamless open worlds, exploration, good crafting, meaningful character development, immersive worlds and environments, friendlier and more cooperative communities, challenging content, etc and so forth.  If these could be implemented in newer MMORPGs with a moderate but more difficult option to complete quests and engage in the game from a solo perspective, then that would be the ideal MMORPG, IMHO.  I am sure we can find other reasons old school games were better but the forced grouping mechanic was certainly not one of them.

Robsolf

Originally posted by Xorian7
I dont care what I sound like, and its nothing against you but every mmorpg vet ive meet has claimed mmorpgs are trash and to simple with horrid communities, im glad the kiddies have something to play but what about the adults hmmm? It doesnt make me less open minded it means im a freaken rpg gamer who actually enjoys games with depth.

I'm RobSoLF.  I'm an MMO vet.  And no, I absolutely do not think modern MMOs are trash and "to simple".  There are some pretty good ones, and some not very good ones.  Some have good communities and some have downright horrible ones.

But anyhoo, now you can no longer say that every MMO vet you've met claims such a thing.

Xorian7

I agree, I reworded it in the main post which by the way dont post there its just a bad area to discuss anything like this. I could of worded it a little differently. Anyways I meant there should be a better balance of harder and group based between that and solo content, I dont think it should be as bad as old eq days where you cant find groups but really these days it should not be even an issue with all the lfg tools mmorpgs can use.

Xorian7

Originally posted by Wizardry

The future is not based on our discussions,it is based on a flooded market that knows only a cheap fast way into the market.

With thousands of developers all vying for the same piece of the pie,nobody is going to risk a long expensive build,especially not Indie devs.

I seriously couldn't care less if Joe plays a Moba and i don't like moba's,at least show me the game has more than dad's pay cheque sunk into it.Just give gamer's a CHOICE in the market,not all pvp or all grouping or all PVE or all solo, or all old school or new school just give us the choice and do it well.Far i am concerned you put out a cheap looking product you deserved to be called out and the fewer people that support cheap games the better off Quality gaming is.

The problem is far deeper than old school versus new school,it is the poor quality shown in game development.

Yea dont ever post this in the main forums you will get some very jaded trolling against you.

SlyLoK

My old school is much difference than many others view of it. For me it goes back to early muds and then to graphical muds. Those games were much harsher than the first mainstream MMORPGs from the time it took to grow a crit to hunting to killing lairs to the death penalty. Player numbers werent near as big as now or even 15 years ago but nothing as of yet matches those games.

EQ , UO , M59 etc arent old school to me in the least.

maybebaked

Originally posted by Xorian7
I dont care what I sound like, and its nothing against you but every mmorpg vet ive meet has claimed mmorpgs are trash and to simple with horrid communities, im glad the kiddies have something to play but what about the adults hmmm? It doesnt make me less open minded it means im a freaken rpg gamer who actually enjoys games with depth.

I'm an mmorpg vet who is also an adult. I do not agree with this statement. I play a few mmorpgs and enjoy them very much. You are obviously confused or so stuck in your own rut that you think you understand the entire playerbase. Some games have awesome communities and some are bad. Please do not think you can speak for all of us. This makes you look pathetic and makes whatever point you are trying to make absolutely worthless.

Azaron_Nightblade

The beautiful thing about solo content is that you don't have to put up with blowhards that try to force their opinion down your throat. And so far every "vet" I've seen that's whining about a lack of forced grouping has fallen into that category.

So I'm very grateful for today's MMOs.

Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by maybebaked

Originally posted by Xorian7
I dont care what I sound like, and its nothing against you but every mmorpg vet ive meet has claimed mmorpgs are trash and to simple with horrid communities, im glad the kiddies have something to play but what about the adults hmmm? It doesnt make me less open minded it means im a freaken rpg gamer who actually enjoys games with depth.

I'm an mmorpg vet who is also an adult. I do not agree with this statement. I play a few mmorpgs and enjoy them very much. You are obviously confused or so stuck in your own rut that you think you understand the entire playerbase. Some games have awesome communities and some are bad. Please do not think you can speak for all of us. This makes you look pathetic and makes whatever point you are trying to make absolutely worthless.

^Also this.

mgilbrtsn

and it's hard to get old school players to appreciate modern MMOs.  It's a classic issue.  Try to get many young people to appreciate 'old' music (Rock on 80s).  Not good, not bad, just a way of life.   

centkin

The thing I loved about old MMOs that is not present in today's mmos is "Your trash is another's treasure."  I had characters at a lot of the popular stores in Asheron's Call and bought a ton of items to salvage or for resale.  I hunted out so many vendors in unusual places and deep in hostile cities with alts in Everquest.  I fixed factions on various characters to get into niches for that purpose.  So many craft items, gems, and even some very nice items could be hidden under the junk.  Was like ka-ching when I found 50 pelts or spider webs buried under the fine steel, or some gem in skyshrine for the vellious armors.

Octagon7711

I've played old school games when they were new and now I really enjoy all the different types of MMO's out there.  I can pick and choose a lot more now.  When I miss an old game I can hop on an emu or log into some of the older games that are still around but most of time is spent on RPG's, 2 or 3 current MMO's, and beta testing new MMO's that come around.  I'm having the time of my life, no more dial-up modems, 24 hour high speed bandwidth connection, gaming laptop and multi-monitor desktop, I'm in heaven!  :-)

 

The old times were fun but they had their problems just like games around today..

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Octagon7711

I've played old school games when they were new and now I really enjoy all the different types of MMO's out there.  I can pick and choose a lot more now.  When I miss an old game I can hop on an emu or log into some of the older games that are still around but most of time is spent on RPG's, 2 or 3 current MMO's, and beta testing new MMO's that come around.  I'm having the time of my life, no more dial-up modems, 24 hour high speed bandwidth connection, gaming laptop and multi-monitor desktop, I'm in heaven!  :-)

 

The old times were fun but they had their problems just like games around today..

Not to mention there are more varieties in terms of both gameplay & settings. In the old days, it was just EQ, UO and AC. All fantasy, all virtual worlds, ...

Now we have MOBAs, instanced pvp games, e-sport games, online FPS, and settings from fantasy to sci-fi, to superhero, to wars.

Kyleran

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Octagon7711

I've played old school games when they were new and now I really enjoy all the different types of MMO's out there.  I can pick and choose a lot more now.  When I miss an old game I can hop on an emu or log into some of the older games that are still around but most of time is spent on RPG's, 2 or 3 current MMO's, and beta testing new MMO's that come around.  I'm having the time of my life, no more dial-up modems, 24 hour high speed bandwidth connection, gaming laptop and multi-monitor desktop, I'm in heaven!  :-)

 

The old times were fun but they had their problems just like games around today..

Not to mention there are more varieties in terms of both gameplay & settings. In the old days, it was just EQ, UO and AC. All fantasy, all virtual worlds, ...

Now we have MOBAs, instanced pvp games, e-sport games, online FPS, and settings from fantasy to sci-fi, to superhero, to wars.

You speak as if these are something new, these have existed since the early days of MMORPG's.

MOBAs - DOTA 2003

instanced PVP Games - WOW BG's, 2004, DAOC BG's 2001

e-sport games - Starcraft 1, Space Invaders Championship, 1980, Korea formed first professional organization 2000

online FPS - Quakeworld 1996

Fantasy - UO, Meridan 59,  Sci-FI, EVE, SWG, Earth and Beyond, Superhero (COH) to Wars (WW2 Online, 2002)

Point is, you've got nothing today we didn't have back then and many of them played quite differently than the standard themeparks and what not we're offered today.

 

 

Distopia

Judging by the content of the OP's posts, I'm more inclined to take him as someone attempting to make MMORPG vets look bad, but hey that's just me.

Hariken

Originally posted by Ludwik
The problem with grouping is its too broad.

I don't think anyone hates grouping per say I think people hate grouping with random players. If my friends aren't available, playing alone is better option than playing with randoms.

But no MMO out there offers scaling group content. If I bring 3 people, I want content designed for 3 people not solo 1 man content or group 5 man content.

The problem is this generation of players. Back when mmo's were niche grouping in a pug was different than it is now. And i'm talking pre Wow mmo's. Players back then were computer geeks. So you kind of had something in common. I didn't start getting into bad pugs until after Wow made mmo's mainstream. Today i would only group with guild mates or real life friends.