Players have been belly aching about cookie cutter characters for some time. Asking why should two characters of the same level, same class, and same gear be equal? No two people are the same, why should stats and stat progression be the same?
That's why they often ask for no levels and only skill progression, not realizing that is the same thing as levels and stat progression. Imagine two non-leveling characters one has a sword skill of 2 and the other has a sword skill of 12. The Skill of 2 hits less often and for less damage. The Skill of 12 hits more often and for more damage. That Skill may be called Swords, but it is still just a level. In the same game two players both with Sword Skill 12 would hit equally as often and equally as hard.
So what happens when you RNG starting stats, and every level you RNG the amount added to them? Well those players with disadvantaged stats just delete and reroll, or they petition for higher stats. If this keeps happening, then they rage quit.
My solution have one set of visible stats that start the same for everyone and level the same. But also have invisible RNG stats that are never seen but only felt in the combat logs. When the player creates a character, it gets some RNG hidden stats or attributes. Say a new character is strong, well if they are a warrior then they hit harder. But if they are a magic user this doesn't help much. I'm sure there will be petitions to GMs of a payer that thinks their character is weak and wants the weakness removed. The standard response in that case, "Oh no, your character isn't weak... You are."
Players would be recording their combat logs, and then analyze them for signs of under performance. Maybe if a weak and unlucky character made it to the top of the PvP leader board they could get some additional notoriety. But that would never happen.
In a Perfect world and pure PVE game, I would be fine with this!
But this isn't a Perfect world and in a PVP game, if you are unlucky with Your rolls, Your gimped character will always be gimped and always be at an dissadvantage against a player that happened to be very Lucky in their rolls!
Just look at PVE games with gear scores and how that poisoned communities, kicking you out of Groups because they didn't like Your gear score.
Now in BDO, they will soon start kicking People out of Groups, because their HP/MP (example) is too low. /shrug
There are much better ways to create uniqueness in games, like high quality character creation Tools and starting out with a stat pool where you can spend a certain amount of Points as start and then when you Level up, you get New Points to spend on. (like DDO and Elder Scrolls games).
But you know what? That takes a bit of extra effort (and Money) to design and program.
Korean Developers clearly don't like that and just go the quick and easymode route in designing and just use RNG on litterally everything! Will boost cash shop sales too! Not to mention releasing New "F2P" MMO's at alarming rate this way.
Imagine a mmo without some RNG. That is a dreadful thought! No identity, every player playing the same cookie cutter classes/race with no individuality. Regardless if the RNG is character based or gear based. It offers a player a sense of individuality with his or her character. I am not fond of seeing a 1000 people running that same cookie cutter paladin with exactly the same stats and armor in a mmorpg. How boring that would be.
I personally like to know that my character is mine. Mine alone,and not one of a thousand clones that most everyone else is playing! Talk about a game going into stagnation!
This is hyperbole. No one is saying "No RNG" they are saying this is a bad application for RNG. Stat level increases should be an even budget across the board. Ding a level, get XX points this stat and YY points to that stat, etc. So by level cap, everyone has the same number of stat points allotted. I am all for how AO did it where you get less points than you need in certain level ranges and more than you need in others. Teaches you how plan it out. and make do. But this is wrong. I'll be there will be RNG modifiers for sale in the Cash Shop. Oh, yeah, "Don't level without it".
So take the RPG out of the MMO? I mean those variations are basic RPG tenets. It seems odd that we criticize people using "MMO" to describe Hearthstone, Overwatch, or Destiny but we want to modify what RPG means. If MMO means "something" and "RPG" means something, then "MMORPG" means something.
Or I could be wrong and everyone who hates the RNG part of this would just rather this be an MMO-MOBA. But then I hope they wouldn't complain about the industry moving away from MMORPGs because no one wants to play them.
This argument really isn't about if games, specifically RPGs, should have RNG. It's about whether people really want to play MMORPGs like they say they do. The next time we see threads asking where the MMORPGs have gone we should think about this thread and others like it. Do people really want that?
Wanting a fair experience for yourself and others means you don't want to play MMOs? Sound logic. /s
Very sound logic indeed. MMORPGs have always had unfairness built into them, from players who are higher level, got luckier drops, zerg with a bigger group, etc etc.
They are vitual worlds, not competitive team sports and just like real life, aren't fair nor are they intended to be.
I recall playing Lineage 1 and after 6 months there were spells my mage didnt have because I was neither lucky enough to get the drop, nor had I earned the adena to buy them.
But, I did have a rare spell of invisibility which was very hard to come by, but the gods of rng smiled on me and my mage had that one big advantage over many others. (and yeah, it was an unfair advantage of the highest order)
But hey, I never got the tornado spell, and combined with fact you chose starting stats at character creation which significantly impacted your offense vs hps vs mana vs # of pets you could tame or cast (no respeccing afterwards, ever) meant even though every player had the identical small white mage avatar, our characters were more unique than most modern Mmos.
Oh yes, and there was random stat gains just like BDO. Big difference, you could chose to delevel and try your luck again, but there were several factors which made doing so every level to maximize gains not worth doing unless you got a particularly bad roll.
I probably was almost unique on my server after factoring in this along with gear variances, more RNG on enchanting it.
There was a quiet brilliance behind the total design which it appears the devs in BDO are trying to bring back.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It sounds to me you just talking to hear yourself talk. I've never lied to you at all nor anyone. I'll give my opinion and label it as such if you require that. I've rarely seen another player "lie" so much as give their opinion. If you can't tell the difference, and it seems you can't, that's something you have to work on. I suspect it's not only games where this is an issue for you.
A lesser experience? How would you know? I certainly wasn't playing the game thinking "hmmm, for some reason I feel like my experience is somehow lesser than the player next to me. Or, wow, I don't know what it is but I'm having 3% more fun than I expected. Which is why I don't see their justification that this makes the game "more fun".
If it can be proven that there is a 50% difference in a character just by hitting "create character" then sure, that's something they are going to have to answer to. But until that time comes one can decide to just play the game or decide it's not worth it and move on.
"No. Paying you for dick riding this game so hard."
Classy.
You responded to me ... I think the only one who wants to hear themselves talk is the BDO hero yourself, who swoops in on every critical thread to decry any negativity. But that's what you don't understand, you don't have to actively try to mislead someone to do so. A biased opinion is only as good as a lie.
How would I know? Because Daum literally just said so. They just admitted to giving players disadvantages for the sake of "uniqueness." Do you think its fair, or good game design, that someone who spent less money than you could have a better character, better chances at loot, and an overall better experience because of RNG? It doesn't make the game "more fun" it makes it unbalanced.
Agreed.
Thanks.
Decry negativity? I have a litany of issues with BDO. But I think the difference here is that I don't feel the need to list them or run to the forums and cry about them, before I then give my opinion on whether or not I feel someone is incorrect or at least that I disagree.
As far as "A biased opinion is only as good as a lie", I'll put this one back on you as it seems you can't exercise critical thinking or at the very least it feels paranoid. If someone states an opinion feel free not to take it at face value and instead weigh all factors. They very well may look at things that way but the idea that you feel that what they say is gospel truth only to then realize it's not and then think you are surrounded by liars is unsettling.
Did I say that the RNG in this instance is good game design? No. Did I say that I felt it was "more fun", no, as a matter of fact I said that I didn't see it as being "more fun" especially because there was no way to really feel the differences.
What I did say was that a small percentage of difference wasn't a big deal. At least "I" can deal with it. What I also said was "it is what it is and if people don't like it then they should go elsewhere". As in anything in life.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Is there anyone that actually plays this game complaining about this issue ...or is it just the forum warriors that play nothing but forum wars just blowing hot air ?
Search Google with the name of any MMO + the word "hack" and you'll get a whole list of very active websites selling and talking about cheat packages and programs. You'll also notice that its the same websites for all of them. Go ahead, try it for BDO, Blade and Soul, GW2, ESO, WOW, EVE...
This is not a new thing and is especially widespread in PVP MMOs.
MMOs ban them when they find out about them but none of them ban them quickly enough that it doesn't keep happening. The best you can hope for is that it's kept to a minimum.
There's lots of douchebaggery in MMOs these days. A lot more than there used to be and the websites catering to them more in the open than ever. Welcome to competitive PVP in 2016 MMOs.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Search Google with the name of any MMO + the word "hack" and you'll get a whole list of very active websites selling and talking about cheat packages and programs. You'll also notice that its the same websites for all of them. Go ahead, try it for BDO, Blade and Soul, GW2, ESO, WOW, EVE...
This is not a new thing and is especially widespread in PVP MMOs.
MMOs ban them when they find out about them but none of them ban them quickly enough that it doesn't keep happening. The best you can hope for is that it's kept to a minimum.
There's lots of douchebaggery in MMOs these days. A lot more than there used to be and the websites catering to them more in the open than ever. Welcome to competitive PVP in 2016 MMOs.
lol Arenanet tends to deal with them promptly and swiftly these days; with some humor thrown in.
Sometimes it takes time to close the loophole and find proof of exploits. I kinda think and hope anyways Daum is looking into this, cause if it gets much worse people will just throw this game in the bin.
lol Arenanet tends to deal with them promptly and swiftly these days; with some humor thrown in.
I've been around here long enough to know that those who like a particular game believe that one is handling it right and the games you don't like aren't.
I'm sure some handle them better than others but to be honest, I have no idea which ones those are since other than the odd publicized one done for PR purposes 99% of cases are handled behind the scenes and most companies have policies to not post about it.
I know that when AA hate was full on, hacking and botting in AA was a favorite topic around here... same for ESO... same for any game. And people will argue for hours about how their precious (insert MMO name here) doesn't have botters and hackers... they all do.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
lol Arenanet tends to deal with them promptly and swiftly these days; with some humor thrown in.
I've been around here long enough to know that those who like a particular game believe that one is handling it right and the games you don't like aren't.
I'm sure some handle them better than others but to be honest, I have no idea which ones those are since other than the odd publicized one done for PR purposes 99% of cases are handled behind the scenes and most companies have policies to not post about it.
I know that when AA hate was full on, hacking and botting in AA was a favorite topic around here... same for ESO... same for any game. And people will argue for hours about how their precious (insert MMO name here) doesn't have botters and hackers... they all do.
Yeah they all do and it seems to be an argument there now; like BDO is special for hackers. On Youtube there are videos upon videos of how to use hack tools for various games.
lol Arenanet tends to deal with them promptly and swiftly these days; with some humor thrown in.
I've been around here long enough to know that those who like a particular game believe that one is handling it right and the games you don't like aren't.
I'm sure some handle them better than others but to be honest, I have no idea which ones those are since other than the odd publicized one done for PR purposes 99% of cases are handled behind the scenes and most companies have policies to not post about it.
I know that when AA hate was full on, hacking and botting in AA was a favorite topic around here... same for ESO... same for any game. And people will argue for hours about how their precious (insert MMO name here) doesn't have botters and hackers... they all do.
Yeah they all do and it seems to be an argument there now; like BDO is special for hackers. On Youtube there are videos upon videos of how to use hack tools for various games.
Yeah well BDO is the new hotness. It gets a lot of attention right now. Something else will soon enough.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I am actually quite impressed by this feature in BDO. And it reinforces my stance that Pearl Abyss really did put a lot of thought into how they implemented the many features in BDO giving it the kind of depth and substance we haven't seen in an MMORPG in a very long time.
What many critics of this game design fail to take into account is the reason why PA felt the need to implement it in the first place. They could, of course, have taken the easy way out and simply did what every other MMORPG developer has done to this point, and developed yet another clone. They chose not to, however, and in so doing they addressed a common problem impacting most, if not all, of these MMORPG clones in that when it is all said and done, their characters end up reflecting mirror image cookie cutter classes of one another due to that information being readily available on the various game sites. This, in essence, renders character development decisions made while leveling all but irrelevant. By implemented a feature such as this one, it at least ensures that no class will be exactly the same avoiding a game in which all of the classes will be cookie cutters of one another at end game.
Not that I would expect critics of the game to understand or appreciate the value of such a feature. We all have our own personal opinions and agendas regarding what we find enjoyable. I mean, we do have an obvious subset of the MMO gaming community who love cheats and hacks and have no problem using them after all. I don't think I need to mention what subset that group of players would fall into, but they, along with their less reckless brethren, have no doubt influenced MMORPG development dictating and changing the genre's game play, fueled no less by capitalist greed that has inspired developers to bastardize the genre in and effort to entice the FPS/MOBA player base, and thereby maximize their bottom line profits.
That all being said, it is my hope that developers begin sticking to their guns and continue implementing features such as these into the MMORPG genre. Maybe then this subset of the MMORPG genre will go back to playing games that are better suited to fulfill their "competitive" PvP needs, and by doing so allow the MMORPG genre to again find its identity. I will not hold my breath since this would require developers to stop chasing the all mighty dollar and make good MMORPG game development the priority, but who knows, BDO just might be the game that sets us on that right track.
Is there any feature in the game that you're not quite impressed by? Just curious.
And either the hp/mp thing doesn't matter or it does. You guys can't have it both ways. If it's insignificant, than it doesn't do much to add "depth and substance" to the game. If it is significant, well, too bad for you if you get bad rolls.
I do like that PA is generally "fuck the system" with how they've made the game. But just because something is different doesn't necessarily make it good.
From what I can tell, the differences are not likely to be significant and this should only really bother min/maxers.
As for the whole anti-PVPer diatribe, you're playing a PVP-focused game whether you realize it yet or not. They have a right to want balance in the game because that's the only time PVP is actually fun.
"After checking with the developers I can confirm this is 100% intended, there is a range for how much HP and MP are gained with each level to add variety between characters without giving too much of an advantage. They believe that no two characters should be identical and that these variations add to the game, making each character more unique and the game more fun.
Hopefully this clears up the question posed, and good luck rolling that nat 20 "
This will be ignored by most of the people reading this thread.
Is there any feature in the game that you're not quite impressed by? Just curious.
And either the hp/mp thing doesn't matter or it does. You guys can't have it both ways. If it's insignificant, than it doesn't do much to add "depth and substance" to the game. If it is significant, well, too bad for you if you get bad rolls.
I do like that PA is generally "fuck the system" with how they've made the game. But just because something is different doesn't necessarily make it good.
From what I can tell, the differences are not likely to be significant and this should only really bother min/maxers.
As for the whole anti-PVPer diatribe, you're playing a PVP-focused game whether you realize it yet or not. They have a right to want balance in the game because that's the only time PVP is actually fun.
Do you even think about what you type before you type it?
The whole anti-PvPer diatribe is one of the features in the game that I am not impressed with in the least. And I would think its a pretty huge one since by your own assertion its a PvP-focused game. I've been pretty vocal about my criticism of BDO in more than one area. Not only as it pertains to its PvP, but also its expensive cash shop. The only difference between my criticism about BDOs cash shop and most of the BS rant by its haters on this forum is that while I admit and criticize its pricing, those hating on it wrongly proclaim it as being P2W and necessary to play the game. Neither of which is true to any extent.
Your bias against BDO is so obvious that you are unable to see my criticisms of BDO because they are issues that support your preference in gaming. So you just overlook them and focus on the positives that I project about the game, which do not support your preference in gaming. Again, I have never said I did not like PvP. I am against NON-CONSENSUAL PvP in MMORPGs. I play many PvP games and I am damned good at them. The difference between my PvP and those PvPers that I play with, is that we do our PvP in FPS games where the PvP is ... wait for it ... fair and competitive. The same thing you supposed PvPers in MMORPGs complain about all the time, yet continue to do PvP in MMORPGs when there are dozens of FPS games providing fair and equalized competitive PvP, and that do PvP 100% better than any MMORPG ever could. But we all know why you do that. Because as much as you complain about wanting fair and competitive PvP, the truth of the matter is that you do not. For if you did, you wouldn't be doing your PvP in MMORPGs. What you really want is to have the unfair advantage that gear and levels give you over another player, and to be able to abuse the unsuspecting PvE player who has no interest in PvPing with you.
Ironically enough, it is BDO's PvP features that also create much of the negative criticism about BDO. For if it wasn't for its PvP this whole supposed RNG stat imbalance wouldn't even be an issue. Neither would the PvP karma system, the PvP opt in level, complaints regarding PvP dominated by gear and levels instead of skill, the various PvP hacks and cheats filtering their way into the game as we speak, P2W cash shop items, Treant/Ghillie suit, the rude, obnoxious, and toxic PvP community, PvP gankers, .etc. I can go on and on ... its just a host of PvP BS ad nauseum.
Are those enough features in BDO that I am not impressed with for you, or do you need more?
And all of it due to this "PvP-focused" game that requires characters in an MMORPG to be equal and balanced cookie cutters of one another because supposedly "that's the only time PvP is actually fun," but yet ruin the very nature of how an MMORPG should be played.
Listen, I had been pretty quiet about BDO recently. I support the game because it is fresh, has a lot of great ideas and potential, and it puts the MMORPG genre back on track to becoming a fun and viable entertainment option. But it is not without fault, not by a long shot, and this post is evidence of that.
If I were you, I would begin thinking long and hard before posting next time.
So a person is agains't NON CONSESNUAL PVP, but somehow picks up and white knights for a game whose whole direction was based around it, and states the PVP is what's wrong with the game? What in the f#%king f#%k?
RNG base stats are dumb. Whether it's PVP or PVE. If they're so insignificant then it means it adds absolutely nothing to the game and doesn't need to be there in the first place.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
So a person is agains't NON CONSESNUAL PVP, but somehow picks up and white knights for a game whose whole direction was based around it, and states the PVP is what's wrong with the game? What in the f#%king f#%k?
RNG base stats are dumb. Whether it's PVP or PVE. If they're so insignificant then it means it adds absolutely nothing to the game and doesn't need to be there in the first place.
The game as it is played in other regions has a PvP opt in at level 50. It also has stiffer karma penalties that makes the game viable and playable for the PvE players. The BDO as it is in NA/EU is watered down with reduced karma penalties, and no level 50 opt in option, which combined makes the PvE player nothing but gank fodder. That makes a huge difference. Huge enough to have PvPers up in arms about making any changes to it that would bring the NA/EU BDO in line with the BDO as played in other regions.
If you want to develop a game that is PvP-centric, and not entice PvE players to play it, don't make 90% percent of the game 100% PvE based. Fact of the matter is that BDO is far from being centered around PvP. Everything that is done in BDO revolves around PvE. Not only do you do nothing but PvE from level 1 to 45, doing PvE activies alone, but even after level 45 no advancement or anything can be achieved in the game without engaging in mass amounts of PvE only activities. There are new regions being released in BDO that are PvE only with PvE dungeons and thousands of new quests for crissakes. That doesn't sound like a PvP game to me, or to anyone else without a massive PvP bias.
Fact of the matter is that BDO is no different than any other PvE MMORPG of its nature. It is a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an end game feature. The entire game can be played and enjoyed without even engaging in any PvP activities. The same, however, can not be said for its PvP.
BDO being a PvP-centric game that revolves around PvP is one of the biggest fallacies in MMORPG history. Nothing could be further from the truth. Put a PvP toggle in the game, and everyone but a very small percentage of the game's player base would turn it off completely and never bother with it.
IDK why the mods haven't made you change the title of this thread is severely misleading. It only applies to HP/Mana and you know there's a lot more stats then just that.
Imagine a mmo without some RNG. That is a dreadful thought! No identity, every player playing the same cookie cutter classes/race with no individuality. Regardless if the RNG is character based or gear based. It offers a player a sense of individuality with his or her character. I am not fond of seeing a 1000 people running that same cookie cutter paladin with exactly the same stats and armor in a mmorpg. How boring that would be.
I personally like to know that my character is mine. Mine alone,and not one of a thousand clones that most everyone else is playing! Talk about a game going into stagnation!
This is hyperbole. No one is saying "No RNG" they are saying this is a bad application for RNG. Stat level increases should be an even budget across the board. Ding a level, get XX points this stat and YY points to that stat, etc. So by level cap, everyone has the same number of stat points allotted. I am all for how AO did it where you get less points than you need in certain level ranges and more than you need in others. Teaches you how plan it out. and make do. But this is wrong. I'll be there will be RNG modifiers for sale in the Cash Shop. Oh, yeah, "Don't level without it".
So take the RPG out of the MMO? I mean those variations are basic RPG tenets. It seems odd that we criticize people using "MMO" to describe Hearthstone, Overwatch, or Destiny but we want to modify what RPG means. If MMO means "something" and "RPG" means something, then "MMORPG" means something.
Or I could be wrong and everyone who hates the RNG part of this would just rather this be an MMO-MOBA. But then I hope they wouldn't complain about the industry moving away from MMORPGs because no one wants to play them.
This argument really isn't about if games, specifically RPGs, should have RNG. It's about whether people really want to play MMORPGs like they say they do. The next time we see threads asking where the MMORPGs have gone we should think about this thread and others like it. Do people really want that?
Wanting a fair experience for yourself and others means you don't want to play MMOs? Sound logic. /s
Did I say they don't want to play MMOs? No. Maybe take a moment to read and think before you put words in my mouth. I said it means they don't want to play RPGs and specifically MMORPGs. Reading comprehension. smh
What you're looking for is an MMO-MOBA or plain vanilla pvp MMO like the Division or Destiny. This isn't that game and if you're looking for bland cookie cutter sameness then MMORPGs might not be for you. Try League of Legends, Smite, or Dota2. They are balanced games where every "toon" is the same with no individual character.
This is a game with characters, not "toons" although I guess you could just play them as "toons" if you want. A lot of people might have forgotten there is a difference. A toon is just some avatar your play and throw away. A character is role you play in an RPG game that has some sort of depth, variation, and character to it (hence the namesake).
Reread this and tell me you are trolling because you cant seriously be this dense.
Wanting a fair experience for yourself and others means you don't want to play MMOs? Sound logic. /s
Did I say they don't want to play MMOs? No. Maybe take a moment to read and think before you put words in my mouth. I said it means they don't want to play RPGs and specifically MMORPGs. Reading comprehension. smh
What you're looking for is an MMO-MOBA or plain vanilla pvp MMO like the Division or Destiny. This isn't that game and if you're looking for bland cookie cutter sameness then MMORPGs might not be for you. Try League of Legends, Smite, or Dota2. They are balanced games where every "toon" is the same with no individual character.
This is a game with characters, not "toons" although I guess you could just play them as "toons" if you want. A lot of people might have forgotten there is a difference. A toon is just some avatar your play and throw away. A character is role you play in an RPG game that has some sort of depth, variation, and character to it (hence the namesake).
Reread this and tell me you are trolling because you cant seriously be this dense.
Rings true to me. The only thing I would change is I would add "differences" to that last sentence in the second paragraph to read, "They are balanced games where every "toon" is the same with no individual character differences. Seems to me that you are the dense one if you don't understand what he is saying, or at least playing dense to support your point of view.
Your response would have a lot more merit if you discussed why his post is trolling instead of throwing out a one liner that only serves to troll and/or save face, rather than intelligently debate the point being brought forward.
Imagine a mmo without some RNG. That is a dreadful thought! No identity, every player playing the same cookie cutter classes/race with no individuality. Regardless if the RNG is character based or gear based. It offers a player a sense of individuality with his or her character. I am not fond of seeing a 1000 people running that same cookie cutter paladin with exactly the same stats and armor in a mmorpg. How boring that would be.
I personally like to know that my character is mine. Mine alone,and not one of a thousand clones that most everyone else is playing! Talk about a game going into stagnation!
This is hyperbole. No one is saying "No RNG" they are saying this is a bad application for RNG. Stat level increases should be an even budget across the board. Ding a level, get XX points this stat and YY points to that stat, etc. So by level cap, everyone has the same number of stat points allotted. I am all for how AO did it where you get less points than you need in certain level ranges and more than you need in others. Teaches you how plan it out. and make do. But this is wrong. I'll be there will be RNG modifiers for sale in the Cash Shop. Oh, yeah, "Don't level without it".
So take the RPG out of the MMO? I mean those variations are basic RPG tenets. It seems odd that we criticize people using "MMO" to describe Hearthstone, Overwatch, or Destiny but we want to modify what RPG means. If MMO means "something" and "RPG" means something, then "MMORPG" means something.
Or I could be wrong and everyone who hates the RNG part of this would just rather this be an MMO-MOBA. But then I hope they wouldn't complain about the industry moving away from MMORPGs because no one wants to play them.
This argument really isn't about if games, specifically RPGs, should have RNG. It's about whether people really want to play MMORPGs like they say they do. The next time we see threads asking where the MMORPGs have gone we should think about this thread and others like it. Do people really want that?
Wanting a fair experience for yourself and others means you don't want to play MMOs? Sound logic. /s
Did I say they don't want to play MMOs? No. Maybe take a moment to read and think before you put words in my mouth. I said it means they don't want to play RPGs and specifically MMORPGs. Reading comprehension. smh
What you're looking for is an MMO-MOBA or plain vanilla pvp MMO like the Division or Destiny. This isn't that game and if you're looking for bland cookie cutter sameness then MMORPGs might not be for you. Try League of Legends, Smite, or Dota2. They are balanced games where every "toon" is the same with no individual character.
This is a game with characters, not "toons" although I guess you could just play them as "toons" if you want. A lot of people might have forgotten there is a difference. A toon is just some avatar your play and throw away. A character is role you play in an RPG game that has some sort of depth, variation, and character to it (hence the namesake).
Reread this and tell me you are trolling because you cant seriously be this dense.
Let me know when you post something of merit with a little thought other than a personal insult. So far you haven't said anything of value in the entire discussion. If you don't get what I'm saying then I'm not the one being dense.
Ever notice how the dumber a person is, the more they think that what they don't get is dumb?
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It sure ain't looking like the ridiculous "it could add up to 150%" some are pulling out of... somewhere. Heck for the same class at the same levels AFTER 50 OR MORE leveling events 3% TOTAL overstates it.
The relevant columns by the way are the "HP w/o Bonuses" and "MP w/o Bonuses" since there are all kinds of things that increase them like guild bonuses, health (eating) training level, etc.
Still a small sample size but it IS a sample, not just random lunatic ravings. And it seems to validate what Daum is saying despite the fact that, as we all know in these forums, developers always lie just for the hell of it.
While I like real numbers, 62 is not enough to decide anything yet. The "3% TOTAL overstates it" is also not true at all. Sort by class and I get 4.5% to 9.5% difference depending on class. Not including the two wizards with the same points or the 14% difference between the lv 50 and 51+ sorceress. I would say if the screen shots are correct it can't be smaller then the 4.5 to 9.5%, only bigger with larger sample.
While 1-2% won't bother most people, I think 5-10% will have a huge backlash.
Edited to add: That is just the points per level, including everything those % will be reduced, but I don't know by how much.
[insert dumb af mechanic] has been around since [insert time]. Why, we used to [insert tactic to circumvent dumb af mechanic... because it was dumb af].
Yah. IT'S STILL F%#KING DUMB FAM! The reason to implement it is dumb. Nobody asked for it. It doesn't add anything to the game but disadvantage. RNG has no place in something like this.
"Yeah we decided to randomly f#%k the player. (well not f%#k just stick the tip in a little bit), because we think it adds to player diversity. This way is much better than giving the player more choices on how their character plays and looks"
Hold this L.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Why have RNG for HP/MP? What game designer thinks that having random stat growth is a good idea?
Korean developers. They love them some RNG.
Rng exists in games developed by all national developers (not just korean). However this is the first I have heard of doing forced perma rng in character stats upon level up in a competitive open world pvp mmorpg.
The epitome of stupid would be to reference the BDO forum community about anything and believe that by doing so it would strengthen or make valid a point. That forum community gives a new and heightened meaning to the word moron. Have you even seen the results of any of the myriad of polls posted on that forum? It's an entitled, obnoxuous, and toxic gathering of the worst of PvP communities. They clearly have no clue about what would make a successful MMORPG.
Comments
In a Perfect world and pure PVE game, I would be fine with this!
But this isn't a Perfect world and in a PVP game, if you are unlucky with Your rolls, Your gimped character will always be gimped and always be at an dissadvantage against a player that happened to be very Lucky in their rolls!
Just look at PVE games with gear scores and how that poisoned communities, kicking you out of Groups because they didn't like Your gear score.
Now in BDO, they will soon start kicking People out of Groups, because their HP/MP (example) is too low. /shrug
There are much better ways to create uniqueness in games, like high quality character creation Tools and starting out with a stat pool where you can spend a certain amount of Points as start and then when you Level up, you get New Points to spend on.
(like DDO and Elder Scrolls games).
But you know what? That takes a bit of extra effort (and Money) to design and program.
Korean Developers clearly don't like that and just go the quick and easymode route in designing and just use RNG on litterally everything! Will boost cash shop sales too! Not to mention releasing New "F2P" MMO's at alarming rate this way.
Very sound logic indeed. MMORPGs have always had unfairness built into them, from players who are higher level, got luckier drops, zerg with a bigger group, etc etc.
They are vitual worlds, not competitive team sports and just like real life, aren't fair nor are they intended to be.
I recall playing Lineage 1 and after 6 months there were spells my mage didnt have because I was neither lucky enough to get the drop, nor had I earned the adena to buy them.
But, I did have a rare spell of invisibility which was very hard to come by, but the gods of rng smiled on me and my mage had that one big advantage over many others. (and yeah, it was an unfair advantage of the highest order)
But hey, I never got the tornado spell, and combined with fact you chose starting stats at character creation which significantly impacted your offense vs hps vs mana vs # of pets you could tame or cast (no respeccing afterwards, ever) meant even though every player had the identical small white mage avatar, our characters were more unique than most modern Mmos.
Oh yes, and there was random stat gains just like BDO. Big difference, you could chose to delevel and try your luck again, but there were several factors which made doing so every level to maximize gains not worth doing unless you got a particularly bad roll.
I probably was almost unique on my server after factoring in this along with gear variances, more RNG on enchanting it.
There was a quiet brilliance behind the total design which it appears the devs in BDO are trying to bring back.
Bravo I say.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As far as "A biased opinion is only as good as a lie", I'll put this one back on you as it seems you can't exercise critical thinking or at the very least it feels paranoid. If someone states an opinion feel free not to take it at face value and instead weigh all factors. They very well may look at things that way but the idea that you feel that what they say is gospel truth only to then realize it's not and then think you are surrounded by liars is unsettling.
Did I say that the RNG in this instance is good game design? No. Did I say that I felt it was "more fun", no, as a matter of fact I said that I didn't see it as being "more fun" especially because there was no way to really feel the differences.
What I did say was that a small percentage of difference wasn't a big deal. At least "I" can deal with it. What I also said was "it is what it is and if people don't like it then they should go elsewhere". As in anything in life.
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Is there anyone that actually plays this game complaining about this issue ...or is it just the forum warriors that play nothing but forum wars just blowing hot air ?
http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/71763-abusing-the-hidden-stats-because-they-are-hidden-kek/
http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/74289-naorwen-more-packet-injecting/
http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/74140-why-are-you-rewarding-for-cheatinghacking-exploiting-etc/
This is not a new thing and is especially widespread in PVP MMOs.
MMOs ban them when they find out about them but none of them ban them quickly enough that it doesn't keep happening. The best you can hope for is that it's kept to a minimum.
There's lots of douchebaggery in MMOs these days. A lot more than there used to be and the websites catering to them more in the open than ever. Welcome to competitive PVP in 2016 MMOs.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I know you probably remember seeing this
http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/6/8559503/guild-wars-2-cheater-banned-video
Sometimes it takes time to close the loophole and find proof of exploits. I kinda think and hope anyways Daum is looking into this, cause if it gets much worse people will just throw this game in the bin.
I'm sure some handle them better than others but to be honest, I have no idea which ones those are since other than the odd publicized one done for PR purposes 99% of cases are handled behind the scenes and most companies have policies to not post about it.
I know that when AA hate was full on, hacking and botting in AA was a favorite topic around here... same for ESO... same for any game. And people will argue for hours about how their precious (insert MMO name here) doesn't have botters and hackers... they all do.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Not all stats are random and there is a very valid total point system used by most gm's I've ever played with.
Point is with 3rd ed allows for point allocation.
And either the hp/mp thing doesn't matter or it does. You guys can't have it both ways. If it's insignificant, than it doesn't do much to add "depth and substance" to the game. If it is significant, well, too bad for you if you get bad rolls.
I do like that PA is generally "fuck the system" with how they've made the game. But just because something is different doesn't necessarily make it good.
From what I can tell, the differences are not likely to be significant and this should only really bother min/maxers.
As for the whole anti-PVPer diatribe, you're playing a PVP-focused game whether you realize it yet or not. They have a right to want balance in the game because that's the only time PVP is actually fun.
The he dif in HP/MP is insignificant.
Do you even think about what you type before you type it?
The whole anti-PvPer diatribe is one of the features in the game that I am not impressed with in the least. And I would think its a pretty huge one since by your own assertion its a PvP-focused game. I've been pretty vocal about my criticism of BDO in more than one area. Not only as it pertains to its PvP, but also its expensive cash shop. The only difference between my criticism about BDOs cash shop and most of the BS rant by its haters on this forum is that while I admit and criticize its pricing, those hating on it wrongly proclaim it as being P2W and necessary to play the game. Neither of which is true to any extent.
Your bias against BDO is so obvious that you are unable to see my criticisms of BDO because they are issues that support your preference in gaming. So you just overlook them and focus on the positives that I project about the game, which do not support your preference in gaming. Again, I have never said I did not like PvP. I am against NON-CONSENSUAL PvP in MMORPGs. I play many PvP games and I am damned good at them. The difference between my PvP and those PvPers that I play with, is that we do our PvP in FPS games where the PvP is ... wait for it ... fair and competitive. The same thing you supposed PvPers in MMORPGs complain about all the time, yet continue to do PvP in MMORPGs when there are dozens of FPS games providing fair and equalized competitive PvP, and that do PvP 100% better than any MMORPG ever could. But we all know why you do that. Because as much as you complain about wanting fair and competitive PvP, the truth of the matter is that you do not. For if you did, you wouldn't be doing your PvP in MMORPGs. What you really want is to have the unfair advantage that gear and levels give you over another player, and to be able to abuse the unsuspecting PvE player who has no interest in PvPing with you.
Ironically enough, it is BDO's PvP features that also create much of the negative criticism about BDO. For if it wasn't for its PvP this whole supposed RNG stat imbalance wouldn't even be an issue. Neither would the PvP karma system, the PvP opt in level, complaints regarding PvP dominated by gear and levels instead of skill, the various PvP hacks and cheats filtering their way into the game as we speak, P2W cash shop items, Treant/Ghillie suit, the rude, obnoxious, and toxic PvP community, PvP gankers, .etc. I can go on and on ... its just a host of PvP BS ad nauseum.
Are those enough features in BDO that I am not impressed with for you, or do you need more?
And all of it due to this "PvP-focused" game that requires characters in an MMORPG to be equal and balanced cookie cutters of one another because supposedly "that's the only time PvP is actually fun," but yet ruin the very nature of how an MMORPG should be played.
Listen, I had been pretty quiet about BDO recently. I support the game because it is fresh, has a lot of great ideas and potential, and it puts the MMORPG genre back on track to becoming a fun and viable entertainment option. But it is not without fault, not by a long shot, and this post is evidence of that.
If I were you, I would begin thinking long and hard before posting next time.
RNG base stats are dumb. Whether it's PVP or PVE. If they're so insignificant then it means it adds absolutely nothing to the game and doesn't need to be there in the first place.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The game as it is played in other regions has a PvP opt in at level 50. It also has stiffer karma penalties that makes the game viable and playable for the PvE players. The BDO as it is in NA/EU is watered down with reduced karma penalties, and no level 50 opt in option, which combined makes the PvE player nothing but gank fodder. That makes a huge difference. Huge enough to have PvPers up in arms about making any changes to it that would bring the NA/EU BDO in line with the BDO as played in other regions.
If you want to develop a game that is PvP-centric, and not entice PvE players to play it, don't make 90% percent of the game 100% PvE based. Fact of the matter is that BDO is far from being centered around PvP. Everything that is done in BDO revolves around PvE. Not only do you do nothing but PvE from level 1 to 45, doing PvE activies alone, but even after level 45 no advancement or anything can be achieved in the game without engaging in mass amounts of PvE only activities. There are new regions being released in BDO that are PvE only with PvE dungeons and thousands of new quests for crissakes. That doesn't sound like a PvP game to me, or to anyone else without a massive PvP bias.
Fact of the matter is that BDO is no different than any other PvE MMORPG of its nature. It is a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an end game feature. The entire game can be played and enjoyed without even engaging in any PvP activities. The same, however, can not be said for its PvP.
BDO being a PvP-centric game that revolves around PvP is one of the biggest fallacies in MMORPG history. Nothing could be further from the truth. Put a PvP toggle in the game, and everyone but a very small percentage of the game's player base would turn it off completely and never bother with it.
Rings true to me. The only thing I would change is I would add "differences" to that last sentence in the second paragraph to read, "They are balanced games where every "toon" is the same with no individual character differences. Seems to me that you are the dense one if you don't understand what he is saying, or at least playing dense to support your point of view.
Your response would have a lot more merit if you discussed why his post is trolling instead of throwing out a one liner that only serves to troll and/or save face, rather than intelligently debate the point being brought forward.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You just didn't get around much back in 2001.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While 1-2% won't bother most people, I think 5-10% will have a huge backlash.
Edited to add: That is just the points per level, including everything those % will be reduced, but I don't know by how much.
Yah. IT'S STILL F%#KING DUMB FAM! The reason to implement it is dumb. Nobody asked for it. It doesn't add anything to the game but disadvantage. RNG has no place in something like this.
Hold this L.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯