Are sandbox MMOs developed as an excuse to make a low-budget MMO?

TheScavenger

Sandbox games, by default, the players usually make the content...at least most of it.

Now first, the only exception to this is EVE which has a TON of content and things to do.

But most sandbox MMORPGs, feel like they are made to be a sandbox because the developer is indie and lack funds of a more high budget game. The vast majority lack substantial amount of content, lack vast amounts of polish and while the players do their own thing. It feels like the developers pretend the MMO is vast and amazing, where the player can make their own content...as an excuse because they themselves can't make the content.

Look at WoW, its a very high budget MMORPG and has so much content its insane. Sure the players don't decide much what to do, they are given choices. But it took a lot of money to make WoW.

Likewise, a lot of sandbox MMOs are made with a vastly less budget, lacks substantial polish and the players are left with an empty boring game world. Most of them as I said, feel like they made it a sandbox just because they couldn't afford to put more content into the game.

Even EVE had this issue early on with lack of polish and content. But now today, it has TONS of content. It is the rare exception to a more high budget sandbox MMO that shows that a sandbox MMO CAN be good, and still have a lot of content and things to do. While its all up the player (as a sandbox usually is), the things the player can do is wide and vast. 

However, outside of EVE. Any time I try a sandbox MMO, it feels like the developer just made it to skimp on actually developing features and content, and made it to make a quick easy dollar off players that like that type of MMO. Sure I can do my own thing, but why?

Where is all the content and things I can do, like I can in EVE? Mostly any time I try the vast majority of sandbox MMOs, I get left with a feeling of emptiness and a poor budget MMO, that they only chose as a sandbox because a lack of said budget. But didn't make an MMO as good as EVE is.

Scorchien

Are these Developers you speak of in the Matrix or in the Real World, because if its the Matrix they would have endless funding and develop the perfect sandbox without financial restrictions , And ! they could make a Sandbox so real it would be like real life , .. wait ............am i typing this ... dam it ..............*punches self in face *   owwww ^$^*$   dam it yes i am

SEANMCAD

TheScavenger said:

Are sandbox MMOs developed as an excuse to make a low-budget MMO

nope in fact just the opposite. Themepark games are made because they are cheap and large gaming companies that are publicly traded either directly or via another company are required by law (contract) to maximized profit as much as humanly possible which in their mind they see as making the cheapest game possible and pumping it with a lot of marketing.
 indie companies often do not have this legal obligation and headache and as such can focus on the game and have the game sell itself. This is why often times indie games are much better

Amathe

Too many games called sandbox are really just big empty space games with a little theme park or two in them. That just gives sandbox a bad name. A real sandbox doesn't need those little theme parks and gives the players the tools to make the big spaces engaging. 

SEANMCAD

Amathe said:

Too many games called sandbox are really just big empty space games with a little theme park or two in them. That just gives sandbox a bad name. A real sandbox doesn't need those little theme parks and gives the players the tools to make the big spaces engaging. 

like Wurm Online you think?

Amathe

SEANMCAD said:

like Wurm Online you think?

I would not know, since I have not played Wurm. I hear good things though. 

SEANMCAD

Amathe said:

SEANMCAD said:

like Wurm Online you think?

I would not know, since I have not played Wurm. I hear good things though. 

what game are you thinking of then specifically?

xyzercrime

SEANMCAD said:

what game are you thinking of then specifically?

Asking the right question here.

SEANMCAD

xyzercrime said:

SEANMCAD said:

what game are you thinking of then specifically?

Asking the right question here.

I get a hunch we will not get an answer

Gaendric

Some devs indeed use the buzzword sandbox as an excuse for no content. But this includes having no sandbox content, thus these are not true sandbox games.

If we are talking about actual high quality sandbox MMORPGs, the players do not make the content (as in the budget relevant assets and systems) anyway. The devs still have to. The "but.. look..sandbox!" excuse simply doesn't work. 
Yes, all those assets may not be placed in the world at first, but the devs still have to pre-create them.
In fact, they have to create a lot of them in order to be prepared for any situation/setting the players will eventually come up with.

Where they can save some money is cutscenes, voiceovers, mocap, and other story focussed things, which themeparks put much more emphasis on.
But those are not really integral to the quality of a sandbox anyway in my opinion. Add them or not, I don't care, I am off making my mark on the world...

A lot of what we see out there being labeled "sandbox" and giving sandboxes a bad rep is actually something else. 
Nobox maybe. Gankbox. WeCouldntBeArsedToMakeARealSandboxGameBox.

SEANMCAD

Gaendric said:

Some devs indeed use the buzzword sandbox as an excuse for no content.......

I really really really really really really want and example of this. I have been hearing this for a long time now and I am not sure its even remotely true

Wizardry

Author seems to think content means quests >>>LMAO   maybe like 5% of content of what a mmorpg SHOULD have.

Low budget games are everywhere and even the ones spending a lot of money appear to be amateurs in game design ,WASTING tons of money to accomplish very little.
What these SHOULD be are neither sandbox nor themepark,they should be built to appear as a real world would since we are suppose to be role playing as if in a real/plausible world.
Wow has zero housing,that is right off the bat,amateur hour and NOT a rpg base to begin with.Then looking at a Sandbox or so called FAKE sandbox,we have basic land mass and a few tools.We still NEED that living world,that eco system,survival,crafting,food drink,sleep etc etc.

There is so much missing from these fake mmorpg's it is a joke,they are all imo second or third rate game designs.
It still always comes down to the QUALITY of the game design,that doesn't matter if labeled as Sandbox or Themepark or fps or whatever.

SEANMCAD

Wizardry said:

Author seems to think content means quests >>>LMAO   maybe like 5% of content of what a mmorpg SHOULD have.

Low budget games are everywhere and even the ones spending a lot of money appear to be amateurs in game design ,WASTING tons of money to accomplish very little.
What these SHOULD be are neither sandbox nor themepark,they should be built to appear as a real world would since we are suppose to be role playing as if in a real/plausible world.
Wow has zero housing,that is right off the bat,amateur hour and NOT a rpg base to begin with.Then looking at a Sandbox or so called FAKE sandbox,we have basic land mass and a few tools.We still NEED that living world,that eco system,survival,crafting,food drink,sleep etc etc.

There is so much missing from these fake mmorpg's it is a joke,they are all imo second or third rate game designs.
It still always comes down to the QUALITY of the game design,that doesn't matter if labeled as Sandbox or Themepark or fps or whatever.

I think the AAAs need to get their head out of their ass and use that money they have to make better games instead of injecting it into PR. They could learn a lot on game design from indies honestly.

that is my view anyway

Eldurian

SEANMCAD said:

Amathe said:

Too many games called sandbox are really just big empty space games with a little theme park or two in them. That just gives sandbox a bad name. A real sandbox doesn't need those little theme parks and gives the players the tools to make the big spaces engaging. 

like Wurm Online you think?

I think Wurm Online is actually an exceptional example of a well done low-budget Sandbox MMO. Terrible graphics, awful and straight up boring combat, horrid animations, yet I've put more hours into than probably every single Themepark I've played combined because the parts it got right, it did so incredibly well that every few months I find myself feeling the need to experience them again and subbing up for a month or two.

Just imagine what they could have accomplished with an experienced development team and a real budget that had the stones to embrace a game idea as ambitious as Wurm's. Preferably on an engine other than Java.

SEANMCAD

Eldurian said:

SEANMCAD said:

Amathe said:

Too many games called sandbox are really just big empty space games with a little theme park or two in them. That just gives sandbox a bad name. A real sandbox doesn't need those little theme parks and gives the players the tools to make the big spaces engaging. 

like Wurm Online you think?

I think Wurm Online is actually an exceptional example of a well done low-budget Sandbox MMO. Terrible graphics, awful and straight up boring combat, horrid animations, yet I've put more hours into than probably every single Themepark I've played combined because the parts it got right, it did so incredibly well that every few months I find myself feeling the need to experience them again and subbing up for a month or two.

Just imagine what they could have accomplished with an experienced development team and a real budget that had the stones to embrace a game idea as ambitious as Wurm's. Preferably on an engine other than Java.

agreed other than the graphics. I think the 'bad' graphics is way over stated. minecraft on the other hand

[Deleted User]

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SEANMCAD

blueturtle13 said:

The term Sandbox means different thinks to different people and developers.
I consider Asheron's Call a sandbox and I also believe it is the greatest MMO ever made and made with a smallish budget.
Some would consider GTA V a big sandbox and it cost hundred's of millions to develop.
No two people can seem to agree on what a Sandbox is so the whole conversation is null.

The reason I would not consider GTA series a sandbox is as follows

1. 50% or more of the map is off limits without cheats or following a specific 'quest line'
2. Some of the content even within the open area is closed until one complete specific quest lines
3. Its tricky and in my mind silly process to avoid doing missions.
4. The missions themselves do not have many variables on how to complete it

The idea should be 'if I dont want to do missions my game experience will not be restricted outside of the story.'

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Saneless

how many of those AAA games did you buy? If the answer is more than 1 then you are a hypocrite. IF everyone stops buying trash games we wont get trash games.

anemo

Well in one of the small MMO-A-Likes  that I've read a post mortem about, one of the reasons they ended up shutting down was that they ran the math of adding more content, that combined with the general tiredness it just wasn't worth their time and they pulled the plug with a heavy heart.

... If I could go back in time (and I can) and give me from 2012 two bits of advice, I'd say that. Because by the time it was done and the first release was online, and players were signing up and playing it, I was exhausted. I had created more than 200 screens of content, dozens of NPC’s, dozens of quests and achievements, etcetera, etcetera… and the whole game had taken about a year and a half to get to this stage, and I was tired. And when it went live, people came and played it! And they came, and played it, and they finished all the content in about three hours of play-time, usually in two or three sessions, and then they left.  ...

...

... The biggest ‘financial’ cost is time. I estimated that going back and changing the game’s design, or just keeping on trucking with the current plan and adding more content to make the game closer to ten hours in length would take at the very least another year’s work. That’s fine if you’re at University,  ...

Source:  http://cranktrain.com/blog/autopsy-of-an-indie-mmorpg-2/   To read in order: http://cranktrain.com/blog/autopsy-of-an-indie-mmorpg-1/

So I would say yes, a very fundamental part of the decision is the financial costs.

BUT there is one aspect that I think also really needs some attention.   If someone wants to make a sandbox game, and is willing to actually risk making a game (and taking a bigger risk with making a MMO).   They probably loved the hell out of sandboxes at one point, and they at least are going into the project with some amount of inspiration from other games that they want to capture and make better.

SomethingUnusual

Some people just like -- including developers -- sandbox games... Nothing to do with budget. 

The difference between a sandbox and a themepark:
A sandbox is there is a landscape, it can be accessed by anyone at anytime -- Albeit level or skill may prevent survival. Whether it be territory control points with place-ables, full on voxel with everything place-able everywhere, or even no place-able objects on a preset open map without instances. Players generally have a large impact on the world. Demographics can change. Nothing is predestined.

A themepark there is a general map with locations and preset closed locations. Usually there are instances which lock a set number of players for an event, encounter, or story arc (dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, arenas) Themepark games are completely capable of being hybrid as well, an example would be Vanguard. Players have no real impact on the world itself generally. Demographics can change, such as phasing, but aren't usually the main point of gameplay. Everything is predestined. 

Simply budget isn't the cause, it's the rules of the "game." Themepark games are like table top rpg campaigns. A game master writes the campaign, the players follow it to unfold the story. Sandbox games are like Risk, Diplomacy, or Axis and Allies. Players participate as combatants or commanders for territory control. 

Two vastly different concepts and game types... Game being the key word, games have rules and structure.

Do you want to play D&D or do you want to play Diplomacy?

Personally, I enjoy both. Games are games. Can't expect them all to have the same rules. Diversity is awesome. 

Scorchien

blueturtle13 said:

The term Sandbox means different thinks to different people and developers.
I consider Asheron's Call a sandbox and I also believe it is the greatest MMO ever made and made with a smallish budget.
Some would consider GTA V a big sandbox and it cost hundred's of millions to develop.
No two people can seem to agree on what a Sandbox is so the whole conversation is null.

    The term has seem to have lost meaning just as MMORPG has , but the word has been around a long time , even Garriot reffered to UO as a sandbox in 97 , either Iselin or Kyleran made a statement in another thread and i cant find it ....

   was basically ........... "You know it when you are in a sandbox" .............this rung very true for me wether it was UO,Eve,SWG , or Darkfall etc.. you definitley know it when you are in one 

Moirae

*slow blink* I don't think you've ever played a sandbox game. The most loved games in MMO history are all sandboxes save WoW. So nice try but no. Go play one. You will see the difference. 

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H0urg1ass

The reason sandbox MMO's are made on small budgets is that ever since WoW came out, the AAA companies wanted games that would pull WoW figures.  So the SWG era was over for the money men.  The second they realized that most players want their hand held and led from exclamation point to exclamation point and big neon signs to the next bit of content, then it was the death of big budget sandboxes in the west.

There are some AAA eastern sandboxes, but if you like the western feel with western looking characters rather than a game set in medieval times, but featuring glamasians with swords that are too hilariously gigantic for their waifish thin frames to lift, then you don't have many options.  

True sandbox MMO's, not themebox MMO's, have a small niche crowd that enjoy them.  Big companies never ever go for small fan bases.  They want a large base and want to have mass appeal.

LynxJSA

When it comes to indies, I'd say that weighs heavily in their decision. They often have neither the funds nor talent to go the other direction.