It's really a matter of statistics when it comes to "whales" and "paying customers"
I linked an article before that laid out the low percentage of whales in comparison to paying players, we're talking a total of less than 5% pay anything at all in most games that are free to play, and the whales, which accounts for more than 50% of revenue are less than 1%.
But if you take into account that free games, at least popular free games, have several hundreds of thousands of people trying the game continuously, those small percentages could still be relatively large numbers.
Meh, if it was 5% of people actually paying for something, and 1% of those people actually being a whale, that works out to about 500 per 1,000,000 players. That's 1/20th of 1% of all players are whales, or 0.05% of people.
So, effectively, even in the most popular of games, there are like no more than 1000 people who are whales, whatever the whale definition is, since it would depend on how much money that particular game generated.
You're actually not too far off in those percentages and numbers. But you also have to consider that these numbers fluctuate with new players, and the amount each "whale" spends. It's purely dependent on the game too. If those 1000 players are spending between 200 - 500 a month, which could be a very real possibility, that could easily pay off, even with a relatively small playerbase.
Yeah, I totally agree. However, the other consideration is what percentage of those players are profiting from the game? Like I played a mobile game where there were a couple YouTubers spending thousands per month, but it was supported by their channel (and possibly the dev). So if you've got, say, 10 people spending $10k per month then it drastically reduces the "contribution" of other whales.
Also, there are some EVE players even on here who spend $100 monthly or more, or have, which pre-dates the idea of loot boxes giving players an advantage. However, multiple accounts & multiboxing seems to have never raised the same amount of distaste, which I find interesting. There certainly was never the outcry for legislation, lol.
I never really thought of it that way, so good points. I just feel like multiboxing is a different animal though. With loot boxes it can really turn into a variable of value. I've created several loot box videos for one of the games I played, and after I did, I would post what I received and the monetary value of those items. In almost every case the value in the boxes were less than what I paid.
I think you're right about those profiting from the game... my videos ended up making enough revenue to where I broke even, but it didn't make me feel like I should go off and spend thousands! With the relatively small amount of content creators for each game though (I don't consider streamers content creators, most of the time its just guys turning on the streaming function) I can't believe that the majority of whales are profiting from the game.
That's awesome dude! I did some videos back in the day and have considered re-launching my site and letting my kids run with it, but just haven't got around to it. However, if I could convince them that they'd make enough money to buy loot boxes in the game, then I might be able to get them onboard.......
I'm just trying to live the American dream here! Help my kids be more successful than me, and then have them support me for the remainder of my life
It's really a matter of statistics when it comes to "whales" and "paying customers"
I linked an article before that laid out the low percentage of whales in comparison to paying players, we're talking a total of less than 5% pay anything at all in most games that are free to play, and the whales, which accounts for more than 50% of revenue are less than 1%.
But if you take into account that free games, at least popular free games, have several hundreds of thousands of people trying the game continuously, those small percentages could still be relatively large numbers.
Meh, if it was 5% of people actually paying for something, and 1% of those people actually being a whale, that works out to about 500 per 1,000,000 players. That's 1/20th of 1% of all players are whales, or 0.05% of people.
So, effectively, even in the most popular of games, there are like no more than 1000 people who are whales, whatever the whale definition is, since it would depend on how much money that particular game generated.
You're actually not too far off in those percentages and numbers. But you also have to consider that these numbers fluctuate with new players, and the amount each "whale" spends. It's purely dependent on the game too. If those 1000 players are spending between 200 - 500 a month, which could be a very real possibility, that could easily pay off, even with a relatively small playerbase.
Yeah, I totally agree. However, the other consideration is what percentage of those players are profiting from the game? Like I played a mobile game where there were a couple YouTubers spending thousands per month, but it was supported by their channel (and possibly the dev). So if you've got, say, 10 people spending $10k per month then it drastically reduces the "contribution" of other whales.
Also, there are some EVE players even on here who spend $100 monthly or more, or have, which pre-dates the idea of loot boxes giving players an advantage. However, multiple accounts & multiboxing seems to have never raised the same amount of distaste, which I find interesting. There certainly was never the outcry for legislation, lol.
I never really thought of it that way, so good points. I just feel like multiboxing is a different animal though. With loot boxes it can really turn into a variable of value. I've created several loot box videos for one of the games I played, and after I did, I would post what I received and the monetary value of those items. In almost every case the value in the boxes were less than what I paid.
I think you're right about those profiting from the game... my videos ended up making enough revenue to where I broke even, but it didn't make me feel like I should go off and spend thousands! With the relatively small amount of content creators for each game though (I don't consider streamers content creators, most of the time its just guys turning on the streaming function) I can't believe that the majority of whales are profiting from the game.
That's awesome dude! I did some videos back in the day and have considered re-launching my site and letting my kids run with it, but just haven't got around to it. However, if I could convince them that they'd make enough money to buy loot boxes in the game, then I might be able to get them onboard.......
I'm just trying to live the American dream here! Help my kids be more successful than me, and then have them support me for the remainder of my life
You should absolutely set them up, if nothing else, have them just stream gameplay. Eventually they might make enough money for some boxes or something.
No... we're talking in the hundreds. It will depend on the games, but, my experiences with MHO and MPQ have shown me that whales are much more willing to spend great amounts than even I realized. On MHO alone I've spent about 100 a month average. I considered myself a whale in that game, until I saw others spending nearly three times what I did, getting all of the costumes, buying endless boosts.
if you were my co-worker I would be willing to bet you lunch that the majority of the F2P income come from players who are paying no more than $20 a month for the reasons I have explained in detail 3 times
That, is not what the study I linked earlier with the statistics stated. Just because you have a "hunch" that whales only spend 20 dollars, doesn't make it so, and seeing as how you already stated you don't play these kinds of games, I don't think you should be making such claims as your knowledge on the subject is severely limited.
does the article you linked explicitly state what that figure is?
I bet not, why? because you haven't said what the number is
The actual amount varies per game. "whales make approximately 7.4 in-app purchases per month, for a median average revenue per paying user (ARPPU) of $335."
"Whales are a game’s top spending players, with the top 10 percent of an app’s spenders being responsible for 70 percent of its revenue from in-app purchases, and 59 percent of its total revenue"
No... we're talking in the hundreds. It will depend on the games, but, my experiences with MHO and MPQ have shown me that whales are much more willing to spend great amounts than even I realized. On MHO alone I've spent about 100 a month average. I considered myself a whale in that game, until I saw others spending nearly three times what I did, getting all of the costumes, buying endless boosts.
if you were my co-worker I would be willing to bet you lunch that the majority of the F2P income come from players who are paying no more than $20 a month for the reasons I have explained in detail 3 times
That, is not what the study I linked earlier with the statistics stated. Just because you have a "hunch" that whales only spend 20 dollars, doesn't make it so, and seeing as how you already stated you don't play these kinds of games, I don't think you should be making such claims as your knowledge on the subject is severely limited.
does the article you linked explicitly state what that figure is?
I bet not, why? because you haven't said what the number is
The actual amount varies per game. "whales make approximately 7.4 in-app purchases per month, for a median average revenue per paying user (ARPPU) of $335."
"Whales are a game’s top spending players, with the top 10 percent of an app’s spenders being responsible for 70 percent of its revenue from in-app purchases, and 59 percent of its total revenue"
No... we're talking in the hundreds. It will depend on the games, but, my experiences with MHO and MPQ have shown me that whales are much more willing to spend great amounts than even I realized. On MHO alone I've spent about 100 a month average. I considered myself a whale in that game, until I saw others spending nearly three times what I did, getting all of the costumes, buying endless boosts.
if you were my co-worker I would be willing to bet you lunch that the majority of the F2P income come from players who are paying no more than $20 a month for the reasons I have explained in detail 3 times
That, is not what the study I linked earlier with the statistics stated. Just because you have a "hunch" that whales only spend 20 dollars, doesn't make it so, and seeing as how you already stated you don't play these kinds of games, I don't think you should be making such claims as your knowledge on the subject is severely limited.
does the article you linked explicitly state what that figure is?
I bet not, why? because you haven't said what the number is
The actual amount varies per game. "whales make approximately 7.4 in-app purchases per month, for a median average revenue per paying user (ARPPU) of $335."
"Whales are a game’s top spending players, with the top 10 percent of an app’s spenders being responsible for 70 percent of its revenue from in-app purchases, and 59 percent of its total revenue"
'most of the F2P income comes from people who are paying around $20'
that said I dont want to discount that link, its good, well done, just not exactly what I am looking for
I think what you're looking for is an article that says the majority of revenue comes from 20 dollar purchases. But that isn't the case and its highly doubtful you'll find that article. In several articles I've found it all states that more than half of the entire revenue comes from these whales. In this particular case whales spent over 300 a month. In the other article I linked earlier the end quote was simply "These games are made for the many, paid for by the few."
How it rolls back around to loot boxes - these boxes give whales something to spend on where there isn't a set amount where you'll "earn it all". These boxes specifically cater to whales.
The boxes are destructive. They cater to people with gambling addictions and ruin lives. The interesting part though is have you looked at these cash boxes in most games? At least for ArcheAge we're talking hideous costumes and fishing boats that look like wooden whales (Yeah literally, the whale fishing boat is a whale). No thanks, I'll take the non-hideous costume I can pick up for a couple hundred gold and the fishing boat that looks like a fishing boat. I could win the lottery tomorrow and I still wouldn't bother with cash boxes.
So for me it's more of an issue of, "Do I want to take a stand for people with a gambling addiction or do I just want to ignore them because they are useless?"
For the most part I don't care because people who are willing to waste their life savings trying to get a wooden whale fishing boat are the kind of people who were going to waste their money on some other useless purchase anyway. It's not my job to be their financial counselor.
The boxes are destructive. They cater to people with gambling addictions and ruin lives. The interesting part though is have you looked at these cash boxes in most games? At least for ArcheAge we're talking hideous costumes and fishing boats that look like wooden whales (Yeah literally, the whale fishing boat is a whale). No thanks, I'll take the non-hideous costume I can pick up for a couple hundred gold and the fishing boat that looks like a fishing boat. I could win the lottery tomorrow and I still wouldn't bother with cash boxes.
So for me it's more of an issue of, "Do I want to take a stand for people with a gambling addiction or do I just want to ignore them because they are useless?"
For the most part I don't care because people who are willing to waste their life savings trying to get a wooden whale fishing boat are the kind of people who were going to waste their money on some other useless purchase anyway. It's not my job to be their financial counselor.
Unfortunately though, nothing happens in a vacuum, and every whale that blows through savings to buy the whale boat is a step towards a shark boat, a squid boat, a dolphin boat, a jellyfish boat... All on sale this week, only $15 each!
The boxes are destructive. They cater to people with gambling addictions and ruin lives. The interesting part though is have you looked at these cash boxes in most games? At least for ArcheAge we're talking hideous costumes and fishing boats that look like wooden whales (Yeah literally, the whale fishing boat is a whale). No thanks, I'll take the non-hideous costume I can pick up for a couple hundred gold and the fishing boat that looks like a fishing boat. I could win the lottery tomorrow and I still wouldn't bother with cash boxes.
So for me it's more of an issue of, "Do I want to take a stand for people with a gambling addiction or do I just want to ignore them because they are useless?"
For the most part I don't care because people who are willing to waste their life savings trying to get a wooden whale fishing boat are the kind of people who were going to waste their money on some other useless purchase anyway. It's not my job to be their financial counselor.
Unfortunately though, nothing happens in a vacuum, and every whale that blows through savings to buy the whale boat is a step towards a shark boat, a squid boat, a dolphin boat, a jellyfish boat... All on sale this week, only $15 each!
All of which sound equally ridiculous, none of which I would use even if it was free to apply those skins to a regular fishing boat. They do sound fun to sink though:
Coding the game's business model into the actual game was a terrible idea though...most people wouldnt pay a dime and would have no financial connection to the actual game, while others got carried away and ended up spending a fortune on a game they were destined to stop playing as the free players migrated to the next new free game making the game they played unfun and dead (full of bots)
"Terrible" for whom? Clearly the devs are making more money, or else they would not be doing it. So clearly it is not terrible for them.
"most people wouldn't pay a dime" .. so why is it terrible for them? They got some free entertainment? In fact, I belong to this group. I say bring it on. The worse case is that the game is not fun, and i waste 10 min of my time. So what is so terrible?
And yes, it is probably terrible for the whales ... well .. i am not one of them.
and I am not sure really the whole meme of whales holding everyone is completely accurate.
I think there are also a lot of people who are paying who otherwise would not have existed if it was a subscription model. so there is that, which is more I dont know but just saying there is likely dollars coming in from people who would likely not pay a subscription
Now you have been defeated on that point (again, most game revenues come from whales) ... so again, these games are only "terrible" for a small percentage of players .... the whales. Everyone else is better off.
Coding the game's business model into the actual game was a terrible idea though...most people wouldnt pay a dime and would have no financial connection to the actual game, while others got carried away and ended up spending a fortune on a game they were destined to stop playing as the free players migrated to the next new free game making the game they played unfun and dead (full of bots)
"Terrible" for whom? Clearly the devs are making more money, or else they would not be doing it. So clearly it is not terrible for them.
"most people wouldn't pay a dime" .. so why is it terrible for them? They got some free entertainment? In fact, I belong to this group. I say bring it on. The worse case is that the game is not fun, and i waste 10 min of my time. So what is so terrible?
And yes, it is probably terrible for the whales ... well .. i am not one of them.
and I am not sure really the whole meme of whales holding everyone is completely accurate.
I think there are also a lot of people who are paying who otherwise would not have existed if it was a subscription model. so there is that, which is more I dont know but just saying there is likely dollars coming in from people who would likely not pay a subscription
Now you have been defeated on that point (again, most game revenues come from whales) ... so again, these games are only "terrible" for a small percentage of players .... the whales. Everyone else is better off.
So what is the problem here?
I personally dont have any problem at all actually.
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
I just made a hunch observation not based on facts regarding whales actually only paying around $20 because the statistical population is larger but it appears I was wrong
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I personally dont have any problem at all actually.
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
Good. Now it is clear that you agree with me.
How about the others? And let me pose the question again. Is f2p whale driven games so "terrible"? And if so, terrible for whom?
Remember that we have already ruled out the devs (who makes money), the free riders (who get free entertainment), and SEANMCAD even says that they are not so terrible even for whales (which you can disagree).
I personally dont have any problem at all actually.
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
Good. Now it is clear that you agree with me.
How about the others? And let me pose the question again. Is f2p whale driven games so "terrible"? And if so, terrible for whom?
Remember that we have already ruled out the devs (who makes money), the free riders (who get free entertainment), and SEANMCAD even says that they are not so terrible even for whales (which you can disagree).
yes. My side note observation may have made it appear as if I am in disagreement but I am not.
Same is true for the FortNite conversation. I am not against P2W in games in which technically there is no 'winning' in the first place. What gets under my skin however (in respect to FortNite specifically) is people complaining about whales, complaining about P2W, people complaining about casinos and then get hyper excited about a game that is all those things. What also gets under my skin is when I repeatly see people complaining about things and i mention 'oh by the way game X doesnt have any of those things you have complained about over the past year' they are still not remotely intrested in exploring said games.
so because of that it can appear I am in disagreement with what your saying but I am not, its more the emo salty tears of others that gets to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I personally dont have any problem at all actually.
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
Good. Now it is clear that you agree with me.
How about the others? And let me pose the question again. Is f2p whale driven games so "terrible"? And if so, terrible for whom?
Remember that we have already ruled out the devs (who makes money), the free riders (who get free entertainment), and SEANMCAD even says that they are not so terrible even for whales (which you can disagree).
It's terrible for me. I want a level playing field. I don't expect to play for free. I am willing to pay for it, but not anything close to what a whale does. I think there are a huge number of people who fall between the Free players and the Whales.
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It's terrible for me. I want a level playing field. I don't expect to play for free. I am willing to pay for it, but not anything close to what a whale does. I think there are a huge number of people who fall between the Free players and the Whales.
I think the reason we've grown so tolerant of it though is we've spent years being told "If you spend 8 hours a week playing and someone else spends 40, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player." In other words if we don't make significant real life investments many people simply cannot make we don't deserve to win.
It's not a huge step from there to "If you spend 15$ a month on the game and someone else spends 2000$, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player."
The difference in outcome matters very little to anyone who has their priorities straight (the vast majority of consumers), and the chance to line their pockets matters a lot more to companies than preserving the sanctity of the fact only basement dwelling virgins are allowed to win at MMOs.
I personally dont have any problem at all actually.
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
Good. Now it is clear that you agree with me.
How about the others? And let me pose the question again. Is f2p whale driven games so "terrible"? And if so, terrible for whom?
Remember that we have already ruled out the devs (who makes money), the free riders (who get free entertainment), and SEANMCAD even says that they are not so terrible even for whales (which you can disagree).
It's terrible for me. I want a level playing field. I don't expect to play for free. I am willing to pay for it, but not anything close to what a whale does. I think there are a huge number of people who fall between the Free players and the Whales.
It is not terrible for you because you can choose not to play. In fact, if it is terrible for you to play such a game, why would you? You are not into self-torture, are you?
So at worst, for you, is as-if these game does not exist. Why would that be terrible for you?
I personally dont have any problem at all actually.
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
Good. Now it is clear that you agree with me.
How about the others? And let me pose the question again. Is f2p whale driven games so "terrible"? And if so, terrible for whom?
Remember that we have already ruled out the devs (who makes money), the free riders (who get free entertainment), and SEANMCAD even says that they are not so terrible even for whales (which you can disagree).
It's terrible for me. I want a level playing field. I don't expect to play for free. I am willing to pay for it, but not anything close to what a whale does. I think there are a huge number of people who fall between the Free players and the Whales.
It is not terrible for you because you can choose not to play. In fact, if it is terrible for you to play such a game, why would you? You are not into self-torture, are you?
So at worst, for you, is as-if these game does not exist. Why would that be terrible for you?
If it were the exception to the rule it wouldn't be terrible... but it's not. It's the norm today. And that's besides the point. If your whole point is that any pay model is good because people can just not play the game... well thanks for such an enlightening comment. That would explain why I'm on this forum instead of playing F2P game 23893721. What's your excuse?
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It's terrible for me. I want a level playing field. I don't expect to play for free. I am willing to pay for it, but not anything close to what a whale does. I think there are a huge number of people who fall between the Free players and the Whales.
I think the reason we've grown so tolerant of it though is we've spent years being told "If you spend 8 hours a week playing and someone else spends 40, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player." In other words if we don't make significant real life investments many people simply cannot make we don't deserve to win.
It's not a huge step from there to "If you spend 15$ a month on the game and someone else spends 2000$, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player."
The difference in outcome matters very little to anyone who has their priorities straight (the vast majority of consumers), and the chance to line their pockets matters a lot more to companies than preserving the sanctity of the fact only basement dwelling virgins are allowed to win at MMOs.
Not at all. I am talking about an MMORPG. A game where my character develops. If my character has more accomplishments than yours (ie.. spent more time slaying foes and conquering dungeons) he will likely be stronger than yours. That virtual character did these things and thus in the virtual world he grew stronger. Plopping down a few hundred dollars to artificially make that same character stronger is a very different thing to me as the character has not accomplished anything. Perhaps the end result is the same, but to me it's like running a race and allowing a few "whales" to start from the halfway mark because they paid $$$ since they didn't have time to train.
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The thing is Slapshot, you are in a dying niche genre. The majority of gamers don't have enough time to invest in MMOs to make their virtual character into some mega badass. To me it really doesn't matter if the difference between us is 100 hours invested into the game or 100$. It sucks to lose based upon the fact we have a life.
Knowing that there are way more people like me than there are you, MMOs are going to cater to the people willing to switch hours for dollars. It's equally unpopular but at least in this situation the 2% of people they are catering their game around are actually giving them more than 2% of their revenue.
Mark my words. There will never be a revival of grind based MMOs that don't have a heavy pay-to-win element. Never. It's a model of handing the vast majority of the fun in the game to a tiny minority of players who pay the same sub fee as everyone else.
Nobody is willing to pay 15$ a month to be your content anymore. EQ is dead. It's never coming back. If you ever want to play a non Pay-to-Win MMO again you need to look to models where everyone paying 15$ a month gets to have fun. Not just the people in an exclusive relationship with their dominant hand.
The thing is Slapshot, you are in a dying niche genre. The majority of gamers don't have enough time to invest in MMOs to make their virtual character into some mega badass. To me it really doesn't matter if the difference between us is 100 hours invested into the game or 100$. It sucks to lose based upon the fact we have a life.
Knowing that there are way more people like me than there are you, MMOs are going to cater to the people willing to switch hours for dollars. It's equally unpopular but at least in this situation the 2% of people they are catering their game around are actually giving them more than 2% of their revenue.
Mark my words. There will never be a revival of grind based MMOs that don't have a heavy pay-to-win element. Never. It's a model of handing the vast majority of the fun in the game to a tiny minority of players who pay the same sub fee as everyone else.
Nobody is willing to pay 15$ a month to be your content anymore. EQ is dead. It's never coming back. If you ever want to play a non Pay-to-Win MMO again you need to look to models where everyone paying 15$ a month gets to have fun. Not just the people married to their dominant hand.
We will see. I've always been one to look a bit further and realize that things are cyclical and the surest way to be wrong is to be sure current trends stay the same.
As for the other comments... I was never one to play a game for 40 hours a week. I've never been in an "elite" guild. Somehow I always had fun though. I think the difference comes down to my belief that a characters journey is an essential part of an MMORPG and a bunch of people who just see it as an MMO without the RPG.
I have faaaaaaar more disposable income now than I do time. You seem to think that means I should somehow change my perspective because it would benefit me personally. I don't. I have a pretty clear feeling of right or wrong without a lot of grey area. Whether something benefits me or not doesn't impact that.
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It's not that I don't see my characters progression as a journey or the game as an RPG.
I don't view my journey as separate from the character's. The part where I am familiarizing myself with the controls, learning the mechanics, and mastering the combat system. I view that as me and my character developing alongside each other. Regardless if there is a vertical progression in a game I always find it easier to go back to areas or replay through levels I've been through before because I've gotten stronger throughout my journey.
I actually find it highly unimmersive and a bit cheesy when I go back to an area where I originally had 50 health and did 5 damage a hit to find I can one shot bosses with auto attacks because I now have 50,000,000 health and do 5,000,000 damage per hit.
I wouldn't pretend you care about the hero's journey and I do not, simply because you feel the need to have it reflected through a mechanic I frankly find cheesy and even childish in nature. I'm more interested in a hero's journey like Frodo's than Goku's.
It's not that I don't see my characters progression as a journey or the game as an RPG.
I don't view my journey as separate from the character's. The part where I am familiarizing myself with the controls, learning the mechanics, and mastering the combat system. I view that as me and my character developing alongside each other. Regardless if there is a vertical progression in a game I always find it easier to go back to areas or replay through levels I've been through before because I've gotten stronger throughout my journey.
I actually find it highly unimmersive and a bit cheesy when I go back to an area where I originally had 50 health and did 5 damage a hit to find I can one shot bosses with auto attacks because I now have 50,000,000 health and do 5,000,000 damage per hit.
I wouldn't pretend you care about the hero's journey and I do not, simply because you feel the need to have it reflected through a mechanic I frankly find cheesy and even childish in nature. I'm more interested in a hero's journey like Frodo's than Goku's.
Except in your world Frodo spent $100 for a Elvish Cloak instead of actually earning it by interacting with Galadriel. For another $75 he bought a vial with the light of the Evenstar...
Also your confusing method of progression with the exponential power growth most games have. I fully agree that having 50,000,000 health is silly but that has zero to do with whether your character grew through in game accomplishments or by a player spending cash.
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That's not my world. That's the world that's resulted from people in your world acting so entitled to win because they've played longer (Even if they don't use that longer playtime to develop better player skills) for so damn long.
In my world nobody can reach a point they can just shrug off the attacks of lower level players and NPCs like nothing and one hit bosses. It's about learning, growing, and developing a realistic advantage based on that.
No "I win" because you paid more OR because you've played more. You become a hero not a damn god.
That's not my world. That's the world that's resulted from people in your world acting so entitled to win because they've played longer (Even if they don't use that longer playtime to develop better player skills) for so damn long.
In my world nobody can reach a point they can just shrug off the attacks of lower level players and NPCs like nothing and one hit bosses. It's about learning, growing, and developing a realistic advantage based on that.
No "I win" because you paid more OR because you've played more. You become a hero not a damn god.
You are again confusing method of progression with the pa ce or scope of it. If you want to argue that characters should not become exponentially more powerful (gods) I would agree. That has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion though. The discussion is about how the growth should happen... should it be based on in game actions of your character or out of game payments...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's terrible for me. I want a level playing field. I don't expect to play for free. I am willing to pay for it, but not anything close to what a whale does. I think there are a huge number of people who fall between the Free players and the Whales.
I think the reason we've grown so tolerant of it though is we've spent years being told "If you spend 8 hours a week playing and someone else spends 40, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player." In other words if we don't make significant real life investments many people simply cannot make we don't deserve to win.
It's not a huge step from there to "If you spend 15$ a month on the game and someone else spends 2000$, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player."
The difference in outcome matters very little to anyone who has their priorities straight (the vast majority of consumers), and the chance to line their pockets matters a lot more to companies than preserving the sanctity of the fact only basement dwelling virgins are allowed to win at MMOs.
It's pretty obvious from your statements and all the others that parrot the same fallacy that what you want is to have a short cut, not to play the game at a competent level but, to buy the power equivalent to that of the basement dwelling virgin.
You've clearly bought into the concept of "win" in a genre of gaming that really isn't so much about winning as it is about just being there and enjoying yourself.
Take the $2000 whale and no-life player out of the equation and what you're left with is the actual non-extreme bulk of those of us who actually enjoy MMORPGs.
It's almost like you think computer games invented the concept of putting time into something in order to get better at it. Last time I checked the same concept works in playing musical instruments, sports and just about anything else in life you want to mention. Throwing money at a piano is never going to do much for you unless you also put in the time to become excellent.
That's why your arguments about this always ring hollow with me. What you're really telling us is that you're envious of those who became excellent by putting in the time and you too want to be excellent but don;t want to put in the time.
It's also what many savvy developers are banking on: that the world is full of lazy wannabes with more cash than sense.
I'm perfectly happy being non-elite and just competent enough to enjoy the games I play. To people like me, hardcore or lite P2W are ridiculous gaming shortcuts and that's all they'll ever be, literate apologists notwithstanding.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
That's awesome dude! I did some videos back in the day and have considered re-launching my site and letting my kids run with it, but just haven't got around to it. However, if I could convince them that they'd make enough money to buy loot boxes in the game, then I might be able to get them onboard.......
I'm just trying to live the American dream here! Help my kids be more successful than me, and then have them support me for the remainder of my life
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"Whales are a game’s top spending players, with the top 10 percent of an app’s spenders being responsible for 70 percent of its revenue from in-app purchases, and 59 percent of its total revenue"
That's just one example.
http://www.adweek.com/digital/infographic-whales-account-for-70-of-in-app-purchase-revenue/
however its not what I suggested.
What I suggest is
'most of the F2P income comes from people who are paying around $20'
that said I dont want to discount that link, its good, well done, just not exactly what I am looking for
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
How it rolls back around to loot boxes - these boxes give whales something to spend on where there isn't a set amount where you'll "earn it all". These boxes specifically cater to whales.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So for me it's more of an issue of, "Do I want to take a stand for people with a gambling addiction or do I just want to ignore them because they are useless?"
For the most part I don't care because people who are willing to waste their life savings trying to get a wooden whale fishing boat are the kind of people who were going to waste their money on some other useless purchase anyway. It's not my job to be their financial counselor.
Now you have been defeated on that point (again, most game revenues come from whales) ... so again, these games are only "terrible" for a small percentage of players .... the whales. Everyone else is better off.
So what is the problem here?
in fact I would even suggest that perhaps the games are not terrible for the whales either, it allows them to fill their egos in ways traditional game couldnt.
I just made a hunch observation not based on facts regarding whales actually only paying around $20 because the statistical population is larger but it appears I was wrong
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
How about the others? And let me pose the question again. Is f2p whale driven games so "terrible"? And if so, terrible for whom?
Remember that we have already ruled out the devs (who makes money), the free riders (who get free entertainment), and SEANMCAD even says that they are not so terrible even for whales (which you can disagree).
Same is true for the FortNite conversation. I am not against P2W in games in which technically there is no 'winning' in the first place.
What gets under my skin however (in respect to FortNite specifically) is people complaining about whales, complaining about P2W, people complaining about casinos and then get hyper excited about a game that is all those things.
What also gets under my skin is when I repeatly see people complaining about things and i mention 'oh by the way game X doesnt have any of those things you have complained about over the past year' they are still not remotely intrested in exploring said games.
so because of that it can appear I am in disagreement with what your saying but I am not, its more the emo salty tears of others that gets to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's not a huge step from there to "If you spend 15$ a month on the game and someone else spends 2000$, they deserve to win, even if you are the better player."
The difference in outcome matters very little to anyone who has their priorities straight (the vast majority of consumers), and the chance to line their pockets matters a lot more to companies than preserving the sanctity of the fact only basement dwelling virgins are allowed to win at MMOs.
It is not terrible for you because you can choose not to play. In fact, if it is terrible for you to play such a game, why would you? You are not into self-torture, are you?
So at worst, for you, is as-if these game does not exist. Why would that be terrible for you?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Knowing that there are way more people like me than there are you, MMOs are going to cater to the people willing to switch hours for dollars. It's equally unpopular but at least in this situation the 2% of people they are catering their game around are actually giving them more than 2% of their revenue.
Mark my words. There will never be a revival of grind based MMOs that don't have a heavy pay-to-win element. Never. It's a model of handing the vast majority of the fun in the game to a tiny minority of players who pay the same sub fee as everyone else.
Nobody is willing to pay 15$ a month to be your content anymore. EQ is dead. It's never coming back. If you ever want to play a non Pay-to-Win MMO again you need to look to models where everyone paying 15$ a month gets to have fun. Not just the people in an exclusive relationship with their dominant hand.
As for the other comments... I was never one to play a game for 40 hours a week. I've never been in an "elite" guild. Somehow I always had fun though. I think the difference comes down to my belief that a characters journey is an essential part of an MMORPG and a bunch of people who just see it as an MMO without the RPG.
I have faaaaaaar more disposable income now than I do time. You seem to think that means I should somehow change my perspective because it would benefit me personally. I don't. I have a pretty clear feeling of right or wrong without a lot of grey area. Whether something benefits me or not doesn't impact that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't view my journey as separate from the character's. The part where I am familiarizing myself with the controls, learning the mechanics, and mastering the combat system. I view that as me and my character developing alongside each other. Regardless if there is a vertical progression in a game I always find it easier to go back to areas or replay through levels I've been through before because I've gotten stronger throughout my journey.
I actually find it highly unimmersive and a bit cheesy when I go back to an area where I originally had 50 health and did 5 damage a hit to find I can one shot bosses with auto attacks because I now have 50,000,000 health and do 5,000,000 damage per hit.
I wouldn't pretend you care about the hero's journey and I do not, simply because you feel the need to have it reflected through a mechanic I frankly find cheesy and even childish in nature. I'm more interested in a hero's journey like Frodo's than Goku's.
Also your confusing method of progression with the exponential power growth most games have. I fully agree that having 50,000,000 health is silly but that has zero to do with whether your character grew through in game accomplishments or by a player spending cash.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In my world nobody can reach a point they can just shrug off the attacks of lower level players and NPCs like nothing and one hit bosses. It's about learning, growing, and developing a realistic advantage based on that.
No "I win" because you paid more OR because you've played more. You become a hero not a damn god.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You've clearly bought into the concept of "win" in a genre of gaming that really isn't so much about winning as it is about just being there and enjoying yourself.
Take the $2000 whale and no-life player out of the equation and what you're left with is the actual non-extreme bulk of those of us who actually enjoy MMORPGs.
It's almost like you think computer games invented the concept of putting time into something in order to get better at it. Last time I checked the same concept works in playing musical instruments, sports and just about anything else in life you want to mention. Throwing money at a piano is never going to do much for you unless you also put in the time to become excellent.
That's why your arguments about this always ring hollow with me. What you're really telling us is that you're envious of those who became excellent by putting in the time and you too want to be excellent but don;t want to put in the time.
It's also what many savvy developers are banking on: that the world is full of lazy wannabes with more cash than sense.
I'm perfectly happy being non-elite and just competent enough to enjoy the games I play. To people like me, hardcore or lite P2W are ridiculous gaming shortcuts and that's all they'll ever be, literate apologists notwithstanding.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED