The problem is that we're consumers and, even with games, we consume. We want more, we want it quickly and we want to be rewarded. Older MMOs offered less in the way of progression than what newer MMOs do. Now everything is about progression, because we're consumers.
You're wrong, those games are still out there, most are just not mainstream.
If a developer wants hundred of thousands players, he goes for the WOW model, no challenge and instant gratification.
If a player wants that real challenge like in the old days, he has to look a bit further, but they are out there.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I'm 34 now and i've been playing games in general since NES and i've watched everything evolve to a point and kinda stop as well at least within the MMO/RPG genre its hard to find a solid game to keep me going that has something unique about it. the last game i played on my PS3 that was really interesting was Dragons Dogma because you have classes you can just pay a NPC and switch your training and gear to as well do something in a RPG i've never seen before which is actually climb big monsters and attack them while you hang on.
MMO games in general haven't been a big interest it seems like its just the same game with a different coat of paint on it
i played Path of Exiles and it felt like a well done remake of Diablo 2 and some Age of Conan thrown in it and even the character menu, inventory and everything while playing looks identical to Diablo 2 at least to me which isn't bad i just wished blizzard would've done Diablo 3 something more like this.
the RPG i've sunken the most hours into is Skyrim without a doubt which is still a favorite even though i haven't played it lately i tested ESO and that overall didn't feel like it will be worth $60 buying and a $15 monthly fee it felt like another clone of an MMO and the graphics aswell as the zones are smaller and all. I think it isn't just the RPG/MMO world shrinking i think its the imaage of the fantasy worlds overall in the eye of the developers they don't make games for out of love and creativity to put out the best fantasy game possible they do it to make money, meet a quota which is the really sad part of all of this.
hell the saddest day in gaming to alot of players was hearing the creator of D&D died years ago when i heard this i shed a tear.
the fact is this generation now is probably one of the reasons why games are so dumbed down,short and overall a waste of money. take for example that new game people really wanna play instead of 40-60hrs of actual game content to beat it now its knocked down to 10hrs and the rest of the game is focused on online multiplayer with some different maps and devs think all gamers want this now. I say NOPE! i prefer more single player focused games with a good story lots to explore and do the online gaming stuff is decent and fun for a bit but there is only so many times you can get killed by that one player online that you want to find them in real life and break their fingers so they can't do it anymore lol.
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
I apologize it was 1996. AOL's The Realm Online came out in 1996. I was 8 years old, and I played it almost every day until I was 12. You will have a hard time finding a human being on this earth that has atleast tried/played more ORPG/MMOs than me 60 years old or 3 years old.
Edit: btw, Realm is the longest running ORPG of all time, still has subs to this day and I THINK it came out before Meridian did.
I started with The Realm as well which is why I always get annoyed when people talk about UO as the first MMO. Just because they brought out the term MMO doesn't mean they were the first to fit that term. That would be like me creating an electric car but instead I coin the term Zappy to describe electric cars and so I get to go down in the history book as the inventor of electric cars.
I skipped right over Meridian (as just about everyone did) and tried UO which was pretty good but they put in too many protectionist changes quickly which took away from it. So then I tried EQ and quickly went "Ewww no", although their try at a RvR server was fun for a little bit. Then I jumped into AC when it launched and went "Finally!!!". It is a shame so many people never tried out AC. Having played so many titles over the years it has still stuck with me better and longer than any other title ever has.
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996. I grew up playing online games like EQ, Asheron's Call, DAoC, The Realm, indie games like Well of Souls... ARPG's like Diablo II, and LoD.
I have been trying to pin point the problem for over a year now. I think there is three major problems 1) Myself: MMO's and Online RPG's have become somewhat 'I've done this before feeling. 2) The games are now designed to sell boxes, and pressured by developers and not build to be a long term game (6 months+) 3) Games are no longer being designed uniquely and are instead sticking with already done content and methods AKA 'Cloning' ideas.
I think a vast majority of LONG time MMO players or 'older school' people are not as happy with the games, and I think we get upset time after time because we just haven't gotten used to the fact that MMO's are not being designed to have content and continue to be played for 6+ months on average, or atleast it appears. They want their box sales, play for a couple months til you burn out, and come back for a 40$ expansion a year later.
Our hardware has evolved, 10 years ago we had huge open worlds, non-instanced dungeons, open world active PvP, dynamic crafting, player housing, housing decoration, weapon crafting, exploration, giant 100 of miles wide continents, and yet.. Here we are 2013.. Games have shrunken map wise, they have become linear, there is less exploration than ever. And any game that capures some type of mind blowing level of one category seems to be severely lacking in the others.
I've made some of the best friends of my life and has some of my best memories playing MMO's. People I've kept in touch with for 5-10+ years, text, facebook, etc. all through MMO's. I've been able to escape sports, work, life and relax in a movie that I write my own plot to.
Games aren't being made for gamers by gamers anymore. Like everything in the world it is all about the dollar now. There is only two quality games right now I enjoy.. Path of Exile, and League of Legends, both companies give a completely free good product and make money off non-pay to win stuff. I despised Guild Wars 2, I despised how easy and dumbed now World of Warcraft has become, and these linear worlds I keep seeing. WHY CAN'T I GO OVER THE MOUNTAIN? WHY CAN'T I STUMBLE ACROSS SOME RANDOM DUNGEON NONE OF MY FRIENDS HAVE VENTURED OUT FAR ENOUGH TO SEE. Why can't I find 'my own hidden' hunting spots. Why are we getting smaller? easier? slower? less skills? less housing, creativity modification, than we did in 2005?
I am speaking in generalities, but facts show other than World of Warcraft there isn't really any game that maintains a majority of subs or even remotely close after release. There also hasnt been any games lately that gains even more traction 3-4 months after. They all lose and lose big 3-4 months in.
Some games I'm seeing are absolutely atrocious. I mean yes, the graphics are nice but when you compare the content / game size to an EQ, AC, or something its like, they took 10% of a true MMO and then put a shiny wrapper on it and charged 29.99 for it. I just feel like the market has been flooded with money grabs and the genre is not being pushed to the limit.
I'm not excited for EQNext because its not even remotely 'EQ' its a EQ story line with a completely different game many came to know and wanted. Maybe it will be good? Or maybe it will be the same as everything else. I just don't see anything changing on the horizon and I'm tired of coming home and being disappointed.
Time to go straight console gaming I guess.
I feel your pain, thats why i went back to asherons call about a year ago. game is still light years ahead of most MMOs out there.
the fact is this generation now is probably one of the reasons why games are so dumbed down,short and overall a waste of money. take for example that new game people really wanna play instead of 40-60hrs of actual game content to beat it now its knocked down to 10hrs and the rest of the game is focused on online multiplayer with some different maps and devs think all gamers want this now. I say NOPE! i prefer more single player focused games with a good story lots to explore and do the online gaming stuff is decent and fun for a bit but there is only so many times you can get killed by that one player online that you want to find them in real life and break their fingers so they can't do it anymore lol.
Sales kind of show that the majority of gamers are focused on multiplayer. The massive success of the CoD franchise is not the single player campaigns, it is the multiplayer. The major success of StarCraft II isn't from people wanting to play against AI. The major success of WoW isn't because people want a solo rpg.
There are people who want solo player gaming, but in modern times they are in a severe minority.
I agree with many points but how a studio hasn't figured out that doing a seamless world and good content = success.
Hardcore gamers may be the minority but we become a vocal MAJORITY. if you get hardcore gamers / MMO vets to finally buy into a game, you would get casuals too eventually as long as there is enough content for them too.
That is all I think a lot of people want, a big world with community immersion, content for casual and hardcore gamers alike, and not linear forced content. We want to explore, develope, craft and dungeon crawl. (maybe we is more me,) but most of my friends seem to echo those sentiments.
Sad, but 100% truth is if I won the mega millions I wouldnt blink twice before going head first into a true GEN1 mmo sequel. I'd go broke making it if I had to.
I think a lot of you severely underestimate how difficult it is to make a seamless world in todays era where people expect top notch graphics and voice acting.
There are quite a few existing games out there with seamless worlds, but people aren't interested in them because they aren't the new shiny AAA game with flashy graphics. Big companies cant afford to produce mediocre looking games to have a seamless world.
I don't understand the obsessive hatred some people have towards short load times. If it means more detailed content contained within, I am all for it. Granted multiple load screens in a short period of time shouldn't be happening in this day and age (SWTOR I am looking at you).
UO and DAOC are still up and running. Why not play them? EQ isn't really what it used to be, but there are ways to relive the past.
And for fans of old style MMOs claiming that there is nothing to look forward to, what about The Shroud of the Avatar? Pathfinder? World of Darkness? Camelot Unchained?
If nothing about any of those titles excites you then it really is you, and not the industry. Go take a break.
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
I apologize it was 1996. AOL's The Realm Online came out in 1996. I was 8 years old, and I played it almost every day until I was 12. You will have a hard time finding a human being on this earth that has atleast tried/played more ORPG/MMOs than me 60 years old or 3 years old.
Ever think you might just be an impressionable youth playing MMOs at that age? You probably still believed in Santa Claus as an 8 year old. Of course things are going to feel different now that you are 25. What you are asking for is akin to believing in Santa Clause again. It can't happen because YOU have changed. Sometimes you have to realize you can never go back.
You will be able to enjoy MMOs again on some level and be an overall happier person if you stop living in the past. That goes for all the grumpy old timers on this forum. We are actually in a very exciting time to be playing MMOs right now. Be a shame if you miss out on it because all you see are storm clouds.
I understand the frustration, I haven't played an MMO in many months and it used to be my main hobby for many years.
But the fact of the matter is, the market has changed and we can't unchange it.
Budgets have exploded over the years, devs have to target the mass market.
So the question that remains is: "Would all the oldschool game lovers really accept an oldschool MMO if it's polish and graphics are oldschool too?" Because a niche game will have an appropiately small budget.
This is just more old school whining. Oh no, it's so horrible that the world doesn't stand still so I can do things I used to enjoy doing! There are tons of things that I've loved doing over the years that I no longer do because either the hobby has changed or I have. That's called reality. Old school gamers need to deal with it. They've stopped and the rest of the planet has moved on. The problem is them, not everyone else.
Originally posted by Cephus404 This is just more old school whining. Oh no, it's so horrible that the world doesn't stand still so I can do things I used to enjoy doing! There are tons of things that I've loved doing over the years that I no longer do because either the hobby has changed or I have. That's called reality. Old school gamers need to deal with it. They've stopped and the rest of the planet has moved on. The problem is them, not everyone else.
This argument would be more valid if your 'new school games' werent barren wastelands after 6 months. You're games are selling boxes, but not keeping subs or players. So maybe we're right, and you're wrong
A lot of it is dealing with the content creation and costs in making a AAA themepark MMO. In order to go out there and attempt to compete in that category you have to have a lot of content from level 1 to max level (and then the gear grind beyond that). The art assets along with the time spent scripting and building all of this content is very time consuming versus a limited scenario based game (FPS, MOBA, etc). In the end most of these games get released with enough content to cover up to max level and little to no end game content (compared to already established games). Throw on top of the fact level progression is faster than it was 10-15 years ago and you can easily burn through most of the content in 1 to 2 months. Not to mention the feature scope to match something like WoW and then extend it so you have something to run features about. In general, the total scope of the project is massive and is in no way cheap or easy to manage.
Not sure how many full scale MMOs we are going to be seeing in the future as the ones that have released recently haven't been full on failures, but other persistent worlds with more limited scale are cheaper to produce with a potential for a larger audience and better ROI.
I think a lot of you severely underestimate how difficult it is to make a seamless world in todays era where people expect top notch graphics and voice acting.
There are quite a few existing games out there with seamless worlds, but people aren't interested in them because they aren't the new shiny AAA game with flashy graphics. Big companies cant afford to produce mediocre looking games to have a seamless world.
I don't understand the obsessive hatred some people have towards short load times. If it means more detailed content contained within, I am all for it. Granted multiple load screens in a short period of time shouldn't be happening in this day and age (SWTOR I am looking at you).
UO and DAOC are still up and running. Why not play them? EQ isn't really what it used to be, but there are ways to relive the past.
And for fans of old style MMOs claiming that there is nothing to look forward to, what about The Shroud of the Avatar? Pathfinder? World of Darkness? Camelot Unchained?
If nothing about any of those titles excites you then it really is you, and not the industry. Go take a break.
UO is not what it was. Basically, as it got away from different ways you could have your corpse looted (Open PvP as the only facet gone, bless deeds, item insurance) it went to more complex items with magical properties as there is no fear of losing your stuff. I would gladly go back to getting killed by someone way more advanced than me in exchange for the fact that the could be crafted with simple, yet fully manual crafting system. I realize I may be in the minority on that.
I'm sort of with the OP in that I am 35 and just don't get excited about it any more. Every now and again, I get a bug, but it seems the focus is always on end game in stead of the journey.
In UO back in the day, I didn't care if I hadn't maxed out all my skills and obtained the best gear. I just made sure I did enough and found something challenging for my level to fight and crafted the gear I liked the looks of or at some point, had the resistances best suited for what I was about to fight. Leveling (skill gain) and gearing were more just side effects that happened while I was having fun. I would have a build I had in mind as a goal at some point, but I just played with friends, met new ones, even role played for crying out loud! Monsters/game were there in the open world and some really cool ones did not require beuing completely decked out.. PvP in open world where large groups or just friendly strangers who would save you if you were getting attacked by a murderer. It was about exploration and community driven content.
These days, it seems I get in to these new games and there is a rat race to end game, usually to then be followed by complaints of lack of end game content. The cools stuff is instanced. People just /whisper or vent to their friends or spam general chat with nonsense. The epic battles are then only to be had when you have the top gear and fully maxed out and it is about gear grinds and staking a claim to who is the best or first at whatever they do. Community has been flushed down the toilet. The PvP is usually instanced and limited in number so people get irritated by new players getting stuck on their team, and probably rightfully so to some degree as these instanced PvP matches are not for fun, they are for victory and to be rewarded in gear in some way.
Thinking about it, I don't think developers are 100% to blame; though. I think back to when I left UO to play SWG with friends I made in UO and had in real life; everything was a mystery. I went in not carring about anything and had that old mentality that probably had been gone for most people for a long time. I loved the game. It had all the elements I loved in an open world. In multiple open worlds at that. Cantinas and med centers provided a community and I would happily just go about my gaming with my friends.
At some point though; I started reading up on the mechanics. Learned how min/max. Learned what builds were optimal and stackind defenses rather than being somewhat of a cross between a crafter and a brawler. Before I knew it, I was leveling in the most efficient ways I could at the time, whether it was solo groups or what. From there, the mystery and adventure became methodical. Friends who were just happy to go about their ways unwittingly and unwilling to learn kind of got left behind. I sought out the "elite" and to do as they do, striving to be the best I could be.
It was somewhere during that time that I just lost the interest. I'm sure the changes to that game did not help but I have myself to blame, and this has gotten to be the way of MMOs these days. Methodical and competitive. Few put fun ahead of that. We now do not have the MMOs that we need, but the MMOs we deserve if I am going to steal a cheesey line.
Original UO is actually a great example (and it is definitely at least my second most favorite MMO of all time and it nips at the heels of the first).
People always act like old-school means massive grind. Truth is that was EQ, not all of the old-school. EQ invented the multi-hour camp wait and the fact that if you missed a boat you had to sit there for at least 10 minutes to take the 10 minute boat ride.
UO is a great example because it wasn't a grind at all. You could get your skills up and get good gear quickly. So you were competitive without a big long grind in the way EQ was implemented. Good gear was also common enough because you dropped everything when you died so you typically wanted 1 suit on and two more suits in the bank.
So the mentality that "We can't make anything old-school because old school was a hell of a grind" isn't accurate. That is a narrow view at EQ and the games that mimicked it.
Originally posted by Spector88 Originally posted by Cephus404This is just more old school whining. Oh no, it's so horrible that the world doesn't stand still so I can do things I used to enjoy doing! There are tons of things that I've loved doing over the years that I no longer do because either the hobby has changed or I have. That's called reality. Old school gamers need to deal with it. They've stopped and the rest of the planet has moved on. The problem is them, not everyone else.
This argument would be more valid if your 'new school games' werent barren wastelands after 6 months. You're games are selling boxes, but not keeping subs or players. So maybe we're right, and you're wrong
MR.
Playing: None
Nice sig.
They aren't barren wastelands. They certainly have fewer players than they started with, but it would be impossible for them to not have fewer players than they started with. Everyone who's going to play a game hears about the game before it releases, and plays it when it releases.
Warhammer was a barren wasteland. We know this because it shutdown. SWToR isn't shutting down, neither is GW2. Both games are generating money and expansions. Rift has generated enough money for at least one game to get released and to finance bringing ArcheAge to the West. LotRO has a bunch of players, spending money on the game and financing expansions. It shows no indications of shutting down any time soon either.
That doesn't mean virtual worlds aren't a good thing. But the argument that not having a 'Virtual World' leads to any sort of financial failure isn't supported by the money games with theme park stages are making.
I think the issue is that most players just aren't focused on Virtual Worlds. The game comes first, the graphics second and whether or not the player is in a Virtual World is a bonus, not a requirement. I'm in the Virtual Worlds are good camp, but when I listen to most people talk about what they do and do not like, the world is never the main topic of discussion. It gets a mention, but it's never the topic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm much older than you and haven't played as long (only since 2003), but I agree to an extent of what you wrote for many of us veterans. However, every decade there is a new group of players coming in from their younger years who didn't grow up with WOW and for them a lot of these new games makes sense. They have SO MANY more choices than we did 10 years ago so the wow clone or similar game market is oversaturated. That is what leads to thinner numbers across games.
I agree that since LOTRO for me, I haven't stuck with a game solidly for more than 4-6 months. I wish there was something that was a new home for a couple of years, but it just hasn't happened.
What I'm really looking for is a game that focuses on finding things as you explore. It doesn't have to be as seamless as Vanguard, but not confined like Age of Conan was at release. I was hoping ESO would provide that, but until I see higher level gameplay Im not so sure it will anymore, time will tell. This is actually the first time I've dived back into some single player games. Currently finishing the last expansion of Skyrim, about to play soon GTAV, dabbling a little back into LOTRO because at least for its existing base it has a strong RPG Server on Landroval.
I do think our expectations of what is successful is not consistent or realistic. I think as long as a game is profitable, has a 'healthy' player base so that those playing can do everything the game intended it to do, and that people who are playing are enjoying, then it was successful. I don't think we should be looking at Sub Numbers of Game X compared to Game Y. There are just too many games now single and online and so many platforms to play them on (Browser, Mobile, Tablet, PC, MAC, different generations of Consoles, Handheld, soon Virtual World Gaming like Occulus Rift etc). Its just a little different today.
Again, it would be nice to have a community that I can truly call my home again for more than 6 months, I'm just not optimistic we will see that anytime soon unfortunately.
I'm much older than you and haven't played as long (only since 2003), but I agree to an extent of what you wrote for many of us veterans. However, every decade there is a new group of players coming in from their younger years who didn't grow up with WOW and for them a lot of these new games makes sense. They have SO MANY more choices than we did 10 years ago so the wow clone or similar game market is oversaturated. That is what leads to thinner numbers across games.
I agree that since LOTRO for me, I haven't stuck with a game solidly for more than 4-6 months. I wish there was something that was a new home for a couple of years, but it just hasn't happened.
What I'm really looking for is a game that focuses on finding things as you explore. It doesn't have to be as seamless as Vanguard, but not confined like Age of Conan was at release. I was hoping ESO would provide that, but until I see higher level gameplay Im not so sure it will anymore, time will tell. This is actually the first time I've dived back into some single player games. Currently finishing the last expansion of Skyrim, about to play soon GTAV, dabbling a little back into LOTRO because at least for its existing base it has a strong RPG Server on Landroval.
I do think our expectations of what is successful is not consistent or realistic. I think as long as a game is profitable, has a 'healthy' player base so that those playing can do everything the game intended it to do, and that people who are playing are enjoying, then it was successful. I don't think we should be looking at Sub Numbers of Game X compared to Game Y. There are just too many games now single and online and so many platforms to play them on (Browser, Mobile, Tablet, PC, MAC, different generations of Consoles, Handheld, soon Virtual World Gaming like Occulus Rift etc). Its just a little different today.
Again, it would be nice to have a community that I can truly call my home again for more than 6 months, I'm just not optimistic we will see that anytime soon unfortunately.
Honestly, Im thinkin about going back to Asherons Call again and if you havent done A.C. I highly recommend it. One of the biggest worlds you will ever see with hundreds and hundreds of dungeons and places to explore and tons of loot. Still about 1,000 active players.
Our hardware has evolved, 10 years ago we had huge open worlds, non-instanced dungeons, open world active PvP, dynamic crafting, player housing, housing decoration, weapon crafting, exploration, giant 100 of miles wide continents, and yet.. Here we are 2013.. Games have shrunken map wise, they have become linear, there is less exploration than ever.
Finally some one who noticed that! I've been telling that for years. And you know what? I know the answer.
It is greed. Some say it is free market economy, but it fact, under the hood it is GREED.
MMO development is driven by paradigm "good enough". Why do more when less is cheaper and yet you earn as much? Find maximum profit with minimum effort and DO NOT DO ANY MORE. Everything above that level is wasted time and money.
[edit]
Oh, and one more thing. Do not let illusion "old games were better so I need to go back to them" blind you. If you do will lose all good memories. I did that with Anarchy Online and i regret. And it is not abut graphics. It is about game companies ruining they best assets in a run to cater to lowest denominator of current instant gratification players.
I'm much older than you and haven't played as long (only since 2003), but I agree to an extent of what you wrote for many of us veterans. However, every decade there is a new group of players coming in from their younger years who didn't grow up with WOW and for them a lot of these new games makes sense. They have SO MANY more choices than we did 10 years ago so the wow clone or similar game market is oversaturated. That is what leads to thinner numbers across games.
I agree that since LOTRO for me, I haven't stuck with a game solidly for more than 4-6 months. I wish there was something that was a new home for a couple of years, but it just hasn't happened.
What I'm really looking for is a game that focuses on finding things as you explore. It doesn't have to be as seamless as Vanguard, but not confined like Age of Conan was at release. I was hoping ESO would provide that, but until I see higher level gameplay Im not so sure it will anymore, time will tell. This is actually the first time I've dived back into some single player games. Currently finishing the last expansion of Skyrim, about to play soon GTAV, dabbling a little back into LOTRO because at least for its existing base it has a strong RPG Server on Landroval.
I do think our expectations of what is successful is not consistent or realistic. I think as long as a game is profitable, has a 'healthy' player base so that those playing can do everything the game intended it to do, and that people who are playing are enjoying, then it was successful. I don't think we should be looking at Sub Numbers of Game X compared to Game Y. There are just too many games now single and online and so many platforms to play them on (Browser, Mobile, Tablet, PC, MAC, different generations of Consoles, Handheld, soon Virtual World Gaming like Occulus Rift etc). Its just a little different today.
Again, it would be nice to have a community that I can truly call my home again for more than 6 months, I'm just not optimistic we will see that anytime soon unfortunately.
Honestly, Im thinkin about going back to Asherons Call again and if you havent done A.C. I highly recommend it. One of the biggest worlds you will ever see with hundreds and hundreds of dungeons and places to explore and tons of loot. Still about 1,000 active players.
There are more than that logged in at any given moment in time, which means that are far more than that many active players.
Most older MMOs stuck in the grind to hide the fact that they lacked content. Modern day MMOs have the money to add in content to hide the apparent grind all MMOs have. If you want old school style gameplay and adventure then don't follow the quest lines and leave the beaten path. Even World of Warcraft has a huge world to explore if you just take the time to explore it. You can play an MMO any way you want to play it, you just choose to play it the easiest way presented to you. You get caught up in the race to max level and forget to actual enjoy the game you're playing.
MMOs aren't all clones. You can't tell me a game like Tera online is similar to a game like Champions Online is similar to a game like Eve. We have so much variety now a days compared to 10 years ago it's ridiculous.
You want to leave the trinity behind? You got it You want action gameplay that requires precise timing to avoid attacks? You got it Turnbased combat and random battles? You got it Tactical combat in the style of games like Final Fantasy tactics? You got it Want to forget about combat and focus on gathering and your craft? You got it You want an MMO that completely revolves around space travel? You got it You want to craft your own super hero and fly around a city fighting crime? You got it Want a more modern setting where every urban legend and conspiracy theory is true? Got it Want to be a master of martial arts in an Asian inspired world? Got it How about a barbarian that wields a huge axe and chops off the heads of his enemy? Got it Victorian era? Steampunk? Yep Open World PvP? Got it Heavily story based gameplay? Got it Seamless worlds? Got it Your own private instances? Got it
10-15 years ago every game was the same. They were made for you. Now a days developers are taking chances, trying new styles and settings and gameplay mechanics, and you have become disgruntled because of it. You can't blame the developer or the community. They've grown and you're the one who is being left behind because you refuse to grow with them.
The problem is that we're consumers and, even with games, we consume. We want more, we want it quickly and we want to be rewarded. Older MMOs offered less in the way of progression than what newer MMOs do. Now everything is about progression, because we're consumers.
You're wrong, those games are still out there, most are just not mainstream.
If a developer wants hundred of thousands players, he goes for the WOW model, no challenge and instant gratification.
If a player wants that real challenge like in the old days, he has to look a bit further, but they are out there.
Agreed, and that's the point. Tools, staff, everything is more expensive to do now. No "Studio" will develop this game. However, for those who are TRULY interested in this type of game, they would be happy with a MUD. The problem is when we say "Hey, I want a sandbox game!!!" and you're given it and then you say, "Ugh! Looks like crap!" There is a massive delta between a AAA themepark budget and a niche sandbox title and there aren't even any studios outside of the indie marketplace who are willing to make them. Community Project!!!!!!
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1995.
Meridian 59 released 1996. Ultima Online released 1997. Everquest released 1999. Hate to nitpick, but I don't think you were playing any MMORPG's in 1995, when you were 7 years old, and no MMORPG was out yet. Anyway, to the point, I think most gamers start to feel that way after a while and just need to take a break. Try some other game genres out then come back to MMO's later on.
Well let me nitpick back. MMORPG was a marketing term. There were graphical muds in the 80s which effectively Mmorpgs minus the Massive number of connections to the server. MMORPG didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere, they were built upon a ton of previous tech.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
You're wrong, those games are still out there, most are just not mainstream.
If a developer wants hundred of thousands players, he goes for the WOW model, no challenge and instant gratification.
If a player wants that real challenge like in the old days, he has to look a bit further, but they are out there.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I'm 34 now and i've been playing games in general since NES and i've watched everything evolve to a point and kinda stop as well at least within the MMO/RPG genre its hard to find a solid game to keep me going that has something unique about it. the last game i played on my PS3 that was really interesting was Dragons Dogma because you have classes you can just pay a NPC and switch your training and gear to as well do something in a RPG i've never seen before which is actually climb big monsters and attack them while you hang on.
MMO games in general haven't been a big interest it seems like its just the same game with a different coat of paint on it
i played Path of Exiles and it felt like a well done remake of Diablo 2 and some Age of Conan thrown in it and even the character menu, inventory and everything while playing looks identical to Diablo 2 at least to me which isn't bad i just wished blizzard would've done Diablo 3 something more like this.
the RPG i've sunken the most hours into is Skyrim without a doubt which is still a favorite even though i haven't played it lately i tested ESO and that overall didn't feel like it will be worth $60 buying and a $15 monthly fee it felt like another clone of an MMO and the graphics aswell as the zones are smaller and all. I think it isn't just the RPG/MMO world shrinking i think its the imaage of the fantasy worlds overall in the eye of the developers they don't make games for out of love and creativity to put out the best fantasy game possible they do it to make money, meet a quota which is the really sad part of all of this.
hell the saddest day in gaming to alot of players was hearing the creator of D&D died years ago when i heard this i shed a tear.
the fact is this generation now is probably one of the reasons why games are so dumbed down,short and overall a waste of money. take for example that new game people really wanna play instead of 40-60hrs of actual game content to beat it now its knocked down to 10hrs and the rest of the game is focused on online multiplayer with some different maps and devs think all gamers want this now. I say NOPE! i prefer more single player focused games with a good story lots to explore and do the online gaming stuff is decent and fun for a bit but there is only so many times you can get killed by that one player online that you want to find them in real life and break their fingers so they can't do it anymore lol.
I started with The Realm as well which is why I always get annoyed when people talk about UO as the first MMO. Just because they brought out the term MMO doesn't mean they were the first to fit that term. That would be like me creating an electric car but instead I coin the term Zappy to describe electric cars and so I get to go down in the history book as the inventor of electric cars.
I skipped right over Meridian (as just about everyone did) and tried UO which was pretty good but they put in too many protectionist changes quickly which took away from it. So then I tried EQ and quickly went "Ewww no", although their try at a RvR server was fun for a little bit. Then I jumped into AC when it launched and went "Finally!!!". It is a shame so many people never tried out AC. Having played so many titles over the years it has still stuck with me better and longer than any other title ever has.
I feel your pain, thats why i went back to asherons call about a year ago. game is still light years ahead of most MMOs out there.
Sales kind of show that the majority of gamers are focused on multiplayer. The massive success of the CoD franchise is not the single player campaigns, it is the multiplayer. The major success of StarCraft II isn't from people wanting to play against AI. The major success of WoW isn't because people want a solo rpg.
There are people who want solo player gaming, but in modern times they are in a severe minority.
I agree with many points but how a studio hasn't figured out that doing a seamless world and good content = success.
Hardcore gamers may be the minority but we become a vocal MAJORITY. if you get hardcore gamers / MMO vets to finally buy into a game, you would get casuals too eventually as long as there is enough content for them too.
That is all I think a lot of people want, a big world with community immersion, content for casual and hardcore gamers alike, and not linear forced content. We want to explore, develope, craft and dungeon crawl. (maybe we is more me,) but most of my friends seem to echo those sentiments.
Sad, but 100% truth is if I won the mega millions I wouldnt blink twice before going head first into a true GEN1 mmo sequel. I'd go broke making it if I had to.
Elect me president?
I think a lot of you severely underestimate how difficult it is to make a seamless world in todays era where people expect top notch graphics and voice acting.
There are quite a few existing games out there with seamless worlds, but people aren't interested in them because they aren't the new shiny AAA game with flashy graphics. Big companies cant afford to produce mediocre looking games to have a seamless world.
I don't understand the obsessive hatred some people have towards short load times. If it means more detailed content contained within, I am all for it. Granted multiple load screens in a short period of time shouldn't be happening in this day and age (SWTOR I am looking at you).
UO and DAOC are still up and running. Why not play them? EQ isn't really what it used to be, but there are ways to relive the past.
And for fans of old style MMOs claiming that there is nothing to look forward to, what about The Shroud of the Avatar? Pathfinder? World of Darkness? Camelot Unchained?
If nothing about any of those titles excites you then it really is you, and not the industry. Go take a break.
Ever think you might just be an impressionable youth playing MMOs at that age? You probably still believed in Santa Claus as an 8 year old. Of course things are going to feel different now that you are 25. What you are asking for is akin to believing in Santa Clause again. It can't happen because YOU have changed. Sometimes you have to realize you can never go back.
You will be able to enjoy MMOs again on some level and be an overall happier person if you stop living in the past. That goes for all the grumpy old timers on this forum. We are actually in a very exciting time to be playing MMOs right now. Be a shame if you miss out on it because all you see are storm clouds.
I understand the frustration, I haven't played an MMO in many months and it used to be my main hobby for many years.
But the fact of the matter is, the market has changed and we can't unchange it.
Budgets have exploded over the years, devs have to target the mass market.
So the question that remains is: "Would all the oldschool game lovers really accept an oldschool MMO if it's polish and graphics are oldschool too?" Because a niche game will have an appropiately small budget.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
This argument would be more valid if your 'new school games' werent barren wastelands after 6 months. You're games are selling boxes, but not keeping subs or players. So maybe we're right, and you're wrong
MR.
Playing: None
Nice sig.
I used to enjoy a good slug of laudanum whilst correcting my wife via fisticuffs.
Then progress came & whiped all that away...
Why even try...
Seriously though, I do, for the most part, agree with the OP.
A lot of it is dealing with the content creation and costs in making a AAA themepark MMO. In order to go out there and attempt to compete in that category you have to have a lot of content from level 1 to max level (and then the gear grind beyond that). The art assets along with the time spent scripting and building all of this content is very time consuming versus a limited scenario based game (FPS, MOBA, etc). In the end most of these games get released with enough content to cover up to max level and little to no end game content (compared to already established games). Throw on top of the fact level progression is faster than it was 10-15 years ago and you can easily burn through most of the content in 1 to 2 months. Not to mention the feature scope to match something like WoW and then extend it so you have something to run features about. In general, the total scope of the project is massive and is in no way cheap or easy to manage.
Not sure how many full scale MMOs we are going to be seeing in the future as the ones that have released recently haven't been full on failures, but other persistent worlds with more limited scale are cheaper to produce with a potential for a larger audience and better ROI.
Joshua Halls
Co Owner-Lead Programmer The Repopulation
UO is not what it was. Basically, as it got away from different ways you could have your corpse looted (Open PvP as the only facet gone, bless deeds, item insurance) it went to more complex items with magical properties as there is no fear of losing your stuff. I would gladly go back to getting killed by someone way more advanced than me in exchange for the fact that the could be crafted with simple, yet fully manual crafting system. I realize I may be in the minority on that.
I'm sort of with the OP in that I am 35 and just don't get excited about it any more. Every now and again, I get a bug, but it seems the focus is always on end game in stead of the journey.
In UO back in the day, I didn't care if I hadn't maxed out all my skills and obtained the best gear. I just made sure I did enough and found something challenging for my level to fight and crafted the gear I liked the looks of or at some point, had the resistances best suited for what I was about to fight. Leveling (skill gain) and gearing were more just side effects that happened while I was having fun. I would have a build I had in mind as a goal at some point, but I just played with friends, met new ones, even role played for crying out loud! Monsters/game were there in the open world and some really cool ones did not require beuing completely decked out.. PvP in open world where large groups or just friendly strangers who would save you if you were getting attacked by a murderer. It was about exploration and community driven content.
These days, it seems I get in to these new games and there is a rat race to end game, usually to then be followed by complaints of lack of end game content. The cools stuff is instanced. People just /whisper or vent to their friends or spam general chat with nonsense. The epic battles are then only to be had when you have the top gear and fully maxed out and it is about gear grinds and staking a claim to who is the best or first at whatever they do. Community has been flushed down the toilet. The PvP is usually instanced and limited in number so people get irritated by new players getting stuck on their team, and probably rightfully so to some degree as these instanced PvP matches are not for fun, they are for victory and to be rewarded in gear in some way.
Thinking about it, I don't think developers are 100% to blame; though. I think back to when I left UO to play SWG with friends I made in UO and had in real life; everything was a mystery. I went in not carring about anything and had that old mentality that probably had been gone for most people for a long time. I loved the game. It had all the elements I loved in an open world. In multiple open worlds at that. Cantinas and med centers provided a community and I would happily just go about my gaming with my friends.
At some point though; I started reading up on the mechanics. Learned how min/max. Learned what builds were optimal and stackind defenses rather than being somewhat of a cross between a crafter and a brawler. Before I knew it, I was leveling in the most efficient ways I could at the time, whether it was solo groups or what. From there, the mystery and adventure became methodical. Friends who were just happy to go about their ways unwittingly and unwilling to learn kind of got left behind. I sought out the "elite" and to do as they do, striving to be the best I could be.
It was somewhere during that time that I just lost the interest. I'm sure the changes to that game did not help but I have myself to blame, and this has gotten to be the way of MMOs these days. Methodical and competitive. Few put fun ahead of that. We now do not have the MMOs that we need, but the MMOs we deserve if I am going to steal a cheesey line.
Original UO is actually a great example (and it is definitely at least my second most favorite MMO of all time and it nips at the heels of the first).
People always act like old-school means massive grind. Truth is that was EQ, not all of the old-school. EQ invented the multi-hour camp wait and the fact that if you missed a boat you had to sit there for at least 10 minutes to take the 10 minute boat ride.
UO is a great example because it wasn't a grind at all. You could get your skills up and get good gear quickly. So you were competitive without a big long grind in the way EQ was implemented. Good gear was also common enough because you dropped everything when you died so you typically wanted 1 suit on and two more suits in the bank.
So the mentality that "We can't make anything old-school because old school was a hell of a grind" isn't accurate. That is a narrow view at EQ and the games that mimicked it.
MR.
Playing: None
Nice sig.
They aren't barren wastelands. They certainly have fewer players than they started with, but it would be impossible for them to not have fewer players than they started with. Everyone who's going to play a game hears about the game before it releases, and plays it when it releases.
Warhammer was a barren wasteland. We know this because it shutdown. SWToR isn't shutting down, neither is GW2. Both games are generating money and expansions. Rift has generated enough money for at least one game to get released and to finance bringing ArcheAge to the West. LotRO has a bunch of players, spending money on the game and financing expansions. It shows no indications of shutting down any time soon either.
That doesn't mean virtual worlds aren't a good thing. But the argument that not having a 'Virtual World' leads to any sort of financial failure isn't supported by the money games with theme park stages are making.
I think the issue is that most players just aren't focused on Virtual Worlds. The game comes first, the graphics second and whether or not the player is in a Virtual World is a bonus, not a requirement. I'm in the Virtual Worlds are good camp, but when I listen to most people talk about what they do and do not like, the world is never the main topic of discussion. It gets a mention, but it's never the topic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm much older than you and haven't played as long (only since 2003), but I agree to an extent of what you wrote for many of us veterans. However, every decade there is a new group of players coming in from their younger years who didn't grow up with WOW and for them a lot of these new games makes sense. They have SO MANY more choices than we did 10 years ago so the wow clone or similar game market is oversaturated. That is what leads to thinner numbers across games.
I agree that since LOTRO for me, I haven't stuck with a game solidly for more than 4-6 months. I wish there was something that was a new home for a couple of years, but it just hasn't happened.
What I'm really looking for is a game that focuses on finding things as you explore. It doesn't have to be as seamless as Vanguard, but not confined like Age of Conan was at release. I was hoping ESO would provide that, but until I see higher level gameplay Im not so sure it will anymore, time will tell. This is actually the first time I've dived back into some single player games. Currently finishing the last expansion of Skyrim, about to play soon GTAV, dabbling a little back into LOTRO because at least for its existing base it has a strong RPG Server on Landroval.
I do think our expectations of what is successful is not consistent or realistic. I think as long as a game is profitable, has a 'healthy' player base so that those playing can do everything the game intended it to do, and that people who are playing are enjoying, then it was successful. I don't think we should be looking at Sub Numbers of Game X compared to Game Y. There are just too many games now single and online and so many platforms to play them on (Browser, Mobile, Tablet, PC, MAC, different generations of Consoles, Handheld, soon Virtual World Gaming like Occulus Rift etc). Its just a little different today.
Again, it would be nice to have a community that I can truly call my home again for more than 6 months, I'm just not optimistic we will see that anytime soon unfortunately.
There Is Always Hope!
Honestly, Im thinkin about going back to Asherons Call again and if you havent done A.C. I highly recommend it. One of the biggest worlds you will ever see with hundreds and hundreds of dungeons and places to explore and tons of loot. Still about 1,000 active players.
Finally some one who noticed that! I've been telling that for years. And you know what? I know the answer.
It is greed.
Some say it is free market economy, but it fact, under the hood it is GREED.
MMO development is driven by paradigm "good enough". Why do more when less is cheaper and yet you earn as much? Find maximum profit with minimum effort and DO NOT DO ANY MORE. Everything above that level is wasted time and money.
[edit]
Oh, and one more thing. Do not let illusion "old games were better so I need to go back to them" blind you. If you do will lose all good memories. I did that with Anarchy Online and i regret.
And it is not abut graphics. It is about game companies ruining they best assets in a run to cater to lowest denominator of current instant gratification players.
There are more than that logged in at any given moment in time, which means that are far more than that many active players.
MMOs aren't all clones. You can't tell me a game like Tera online is similar to a game like Champions Online is similar to a game like Eve. We have so much variety now a days compared to 10 years ago it's ridiculous.
You want to leave the trinity behind? You got it
You want action gameplay that requires precise timing to avoid attacks? You got it
Turnbased combat and random battles? You got it
Tactical combat in the style of games like Final Fantasy tactics? You got it
Want to forget about combat and focus on gathering and your craft? You got it
You want an MMO that completely revolves around space travel? You got it
You want to craft your own super hero and fly around a city fighting crime? You got it
Want a more modern setting where every urban legend and conspiracy theory is true? Got it
Want to be a master of martial arts in an Asian inspired world? Got it
How about a barbarian that wields a huge axe and chops off the heads of his enemy? Got it
Victorian era? Steampunk? Yep
Open World PvP? Got it
Heavily story based gameplay? Got it
Seamless worlds? Got it
Your own private instances? Got it
10-15 years ago every game was the same. They were made for you. Now a days developers are taking chances, trying new styles and settings and gameplay mechanics, and you have become disgruntled because of it. You can't blame the developer or the community. They've grown and you're the one who is being left behind because you refuse to grow with them.
Agreed, and that's the point. Tools, staff, everything is more expensive to do now. No "Studio" will develop this game. However, for those who are TRULY interested in this type of game, they would be happy with a MUD. The problem is when we say "Hey, I want a sandbox game!!!" and you're given it and then you say, "Ugh! Looks like crap!" There is a massive delta between a AAA themepark budget and a niche sandbox title and there aren't even any studios outside of the indie marketplace who are willing to make them. Community Project!!!!!!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Less we forget the lost state-of-the-art while sobbing into our beers...
State of the Art 1996 That's some pretty primitive stuff. Pentium1's. 33.6k modems.
Just exiting the end of the pay-by-hour era, and game design absolutely still reflects it.
Well let me nitpick back. MMORPG was a marketing term. There were graphical muds in the 80s which effectively Mmorpgs minus the Massive number of connections to the server. MMORPG didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere, they were built upon a ton of previous tech.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"