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Venge, to reply to your reply...
Spending money is a fact. Getting something for that money is a fact. Other players not getting said item because they didn't spend is a fact. And all of this done inside the same game play is a fact.
Considering all of this as a "win" is subject to each individual, but not subject to interpretation as all encompassing to all the players of a game. This too is a fact.
Once upon a time....
Spending money, if you did is a fact.
Getting an item, if you did, is a fact.
Other people not spending money and not getting the item, if money was required for the item, is a fact.
Winning in a game is typical not subjective but is defined by the parameters of the game.
And even if you were right and winning is subjective than that all by itself means that the item which gave the subjective win is a subjective experience and not factual.
If you don't think the win is subjective then buying the item may or may not be a win depending the what the item does.
Hmm?
(I know, this is a snarky reply on my part. I couldn't help it. Sorry. LOL)
Once upon a time....
LOL, with my previous post.
So, is this checkmate?
Once upon a time....
Sorry I seem to be messing up the quotes. My reply is on the previous page now.
By this token should the game also not limit the time people have to play too. One person can play and earn more and buy better items. If you can only play 2 hours should the time others invest in a game be limited to make it fair to everyone. This way you cannot play more and earn more in game gold.
What difference does time and money make. Both are resources why limit money but not time ?
Ahh, I don't believe you are correct.
"Winning in a game is typical not subjective but is defined by the parameters of the game."
The parameters of a game as set by the producers/devs? By the players? No, in either case. People can't change facts by determining "parameters".
"And even if you were right and winning is subjective than that all by itself means that the item which gave the subjective win is a subjective experience and not factual."
I said that "winning" is subjective to individuals, but that you can't take that and extend it to the product as a whole, to all the players, as in defining it on any one side.
"If you don't think the win is subjective then buying the item may or may not be a win depending the what the item does."
I DO think "win" is subjective. And as I said, because of that you can't define it for the entire player base in one way or another. You have to toss this idea out, it doesn't work.
So you end up going back to the true facts. One player is getting something that another player isn't getting, by buying it.
And that's P2W.
Once upon a time....
..lIke an Expansion pack.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah, I think so. But how is the question.
First we have to recognize that nothing is perfect. But I did provide an idea earlier in this thread.
I'll quote it:
So, basically I'm saying there should be a way to limit gain per character, making it "more fair". Can't be perfect though.
And this idea still allows a gamer to play other characters and advance them at the same, slowed, rate.
Once upon a time....
I already answered you on that one. It depends on what part of the expansion you're talking about. New lands vs. items and content that's included in the old lands.
But you know what I said back then (yesterday? Day before?)
And you didn't offer anything of substance to counter what I said, as far as I can remember.
So why do this again? Mr. "those of us who work in the industry"?
Just trying to blunt force me out of the conversation with repetitive "game play"? (Where have I seen that before?)
And you wonder why I say you industry people are trying to control the boards and gamer perspective. This tactic has been used by you and other industry people "repetitively" and extensively for years.
Once upon a time....
This discussion started when you stated it is a fact, it is not debatable, is not open to interpretation.
If the win is subjective, then the whole system is open to interpretation. If I don't think it's a win, then to me the item is not pay to win. If you think it is a win, and the item caused it then the item is pay to win.
That is the very definition of subjective.
It is only pay to win according to the individual subjective preference/ideology.... That's why it is not fact. The win is subjective.
And that makes it a P2W game. You cannot claim it's not by referring to those individuals who claim it's not. (which always includes the producers/developers and those who wish to, you know, pay for advantages including vanity items others can't have.)
Once upon a time....
In the real world time most definitely equals money, however these are games we are talking about; the whole point is to play the game. People who have more time to play are (and should be) "better" at the game, duh. That should be a given for crying out loud. Sometimes I have a lot of time for gaming, often times I do not; that's life. I expect to get out of it what I put in. I do not expect people to literally buy their way through the game. This goes against the very nature of games.
Thirty years of playing video games and this is where we ended up. Sad.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It only makes it p2w if you believe that there is a win and the item caused it.
So it is subjective.
If I don't believe there is a win and/or don't believe the item caused it, it is not p2w.
The entire conversation on p2w depends on what you define as a win.
That is why it is debatable and it is open to interpretation.
I don't consider looks as winning, there cosmetic items to me are not p2w and most of these games are not p2w.
I don't consider experience boosts as winning because at any given level they cannot do anything more than me therefore most of these games are not p2w.
I do consider something p2w when we are the same level and he/she is capable of beating an opponent I cannot, or beat me, or do something I cannot strictly because of a bought item.
So you see, the whole is absolutely debatable and depends entirely on what you consider a win.
edit - if I can't claim it's not pay 2 win by referring to those who believe it isn't, then by the same token you cannot say it is by referring to people who believe it is. It's subjective therefore debatable and open to interpretation.
edit 2 - it is only p2w if you believe there was a win from it. And the win is subjective. See?
Okay then if I have more time and can then convert my time into gold then buy real money with that gold like in GW 2 and then use that money to buy vanity items is that P2W ?
No, you have to take the subjectivity out of it.
That leaves you with players buying things other players can't have (or have to work for).
That's the fact. And that's P2W.
Once upon a time....
Sorry had not read that and I see so you agree it should be limited . Interesting. Wonder how well that will go down with most players.... Skyforge restrictions for instance on weekly caps.
Yes. The other guy who didn't buy the vanity item can't have it. You got "win".
Once upon a time....
So if you can by becoming a subscriber in a F2P game like SWTOR gain access to an expansion pack or content by merely subscribing so by your definition because you cannot work your way to that expansion except by outright buying it then it would be P2W.
You can't take the subjectivity out of it, because the entire premise is built on a subjective win. That's the fact.
You yourself stated the win is subjective. Then paying for an item may or may not be a win and depends entirely on if you believe there was a win.
No win = no pay 2 win.
Dude, I'd love to discuss it to death with you, however you really are being irrational. You say that any paid content anyone presents is pay to win ... unconditionally. If you pay for it and other person cannot get it without having to pay, it's pay to win. However, you are used to expansion packs therefore you have rationalized they are different. You went as far as getting angry and cursing when challenged on that point, so I dropped the topic.
When you're ready to be reasonable, we can talk. Til then, bark at the moon, bro.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Once upon a time....
I am reasonable, and I answered you on that.
I don't see why I should repeat myself.
Edit: Here, I did repeat myself after all and included the quotes for reference just above. So people can clearly see how "irrational" and "unreasonable" I was.
Once upon a time....